Brexit View

[JoeLeg]

malumbu Wrote:

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> I'm struggling to resolve relationships with

> friends and family who voted to leave. I'm in a

> bubble of remainers but still shocked by

> entrenched views outside of this. I try to avoid

> the subject in these situations - a recent

> discussion was regurgitation of the argument about

> taking control yet the underlying issue was

> immigration (and essentially this person is a

> racist never liking Asian and Caribbean

> communities 'taking over' their city in the 60s

> and now stretching to Eastern Europeans. I've

> heard similar from those in the outer London

> Boroughs. I feel that the country is more divided

> than it has been for a long time. I have to stop

> myself saying 'you want to take control' 'this is

> a popular uprising' 'Yet who are you siding with?

> The Daily Mail establishment and William chuffing

> Rees Mogg'

>

> The easiest thing is to drop old friends. Which I

> have.

> https://www.soundhound.com/?t=100504526420030743

> More difficult with family....

I've found similar issues, and it disturbs me because anecdotally - and I say that because what follows is based on nothing more than commentary from the people I know on both sides of the debate - it seems that there is increased willingness from Leave voters to accept a hard Brexit/no deal, and to walk away from the talks, just to teach the EU a lesson.

More worryingly, I know a number of Remain voters who want the same outcome (no deal), in order to watch the UK suffer and be able to say "I told you so" later on, which I have to say I find disturbing.

In any event, we seem as polarised as we've ever been, and my only hopeful thought is that the govt is playing up the possibility of 'no deal' so that when we do get a deal it'll seem great and we'll all be so relieved that we accept whatever it is, which doesn't seem like a great plan either.

[JohnL]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> More disturbingly, I know a number of Remain

> voters who want the same outcome (no deal), in

> order to watch the UK suffer and be able to say "I

> told you so" later on, which I have to say I find

> disturbing.

I have a bit of this about me in my ultra remain moments, It's not to say 'I told you so' though - it's to force a change of direction or change of government or second referendum (if you say that explicitly be prepared to get called remaino-fascist )

[JoeLeg]

Well you sound a little more rational than some hardcore remainers I know. I get that it comes from anger and bitterness, and I'd agree that in the months that followed the vote a lot of Leave voters rammed their victory down the throats of remainers and told them to suck on it, which was a pretty short sighted tactic.

But we are where we are now, and we need a deal.

[red devil]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> More worryingly, I know a number of Remain voters

> who want the same outcome (no deal), in order to

> watch the UK suffer and be able to say "I told you

> so" later on, which I have to say I find

> disturbing.

Although I don't agree with it, I can understand why some might think like that. If we manage to get a soft Brexit it will be no thanks to the Brextremists who would rather we walk away with no deal, yet they will still turn around and say ''See, Brexit wasn't so bad after all!''...

[JoeLeg]

red devil

> Although I don't agree with it, I can understand

> why some might think like that. If we manage to

> get a soft Brexit it will be no thanks to the

> Brextremists who would rather we walk away with no

> deal, yet they will still turn around and say

> ''See, Brexit wasn't so bad after all!''...

If we get a soft Brexit which doesn't screw this country over I can live with the snotty attitudes of brexiters who feel vindicated. What I don't want is either the hard fridge forcing a hard Brexit, or a moderate compromise deal being reached and the extremists spending years shouting "this was not what we voted for!", which I think is a real possibility.

[red devil]

It's quite clear from the snap GE that the country didn't want to give May an increased majority and therefore a mandate for ''no deal is better than a bad deal''. It's funny how the Brextremeists conveniently forget about this aspect of ''the will of the people''' when it suits them...

[Earl Aelfheah]

Let's face it. The brextremists will never be happy, whatever the outcome - and they'll continue to blame everyone else for the countries ills, whatever they are.

[JohnL]

Corbyn's been greeted as a hero in Brussels by the Centre Left group. May must feel stalked sometimes :)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/19/jeremy-corbyn-tells-theresa-may-and-eu-leaders-to-stop-posturing-brexit-talks

Ex head of MI6 wants a James Bond Brexit according to the Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4996870/Ex-MI6-head-said-UK-s-spies-need-investment-post-Brexit.html

or no Brexit at all according to the Mirror

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-might-not-happen-would-11370367

[fishbiscuits]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Corbyn's been greeted as a hero in Brussels

Ironic given his anti-EU position

[robbin]

Yes, he's full of it. He'll just say anything or do anything if he thinks there's a vote in it for him.

[robbin]

Just like Theresa May and so many other politicians, but there's something particularly distasteful about the way he likes to take na?ve people for mugs.

[JoeLeg]

I don't believe Corbyn would make a good - or even average - PM, I never want to see him in No. 10, but I'm not convinced he's as vicious as you make him out to be. If anything I'd say he's the naive one, it's folk like McDonnell and Milne that I find appalling.

Corbyn has spent his life spouting his principles from the back benches, safe in the knowledge that he'd never have to actually deliver or be really tested on his positions. Until now...

[malumbu]

Yep the relation I referred too also loves Corbyn (definitely a mug).

[rendelharris]

robbin Wrote:

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> Yes, he's full of it. He'll just say anything or

> do anything if he thinks there's a vote in it for

> him.

Thank God we have May and Boris in charge for us then, they've never hypocritically shifted their positions on the EU to stay in power, have they?!

[Loz]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> I don't believe Corbyn would make a good - or even

> average - PM, I never want to see him in No. 10,

> but I'm not convinced he's as vicious as you make

> him out to be. If anything I'd say he's the naive

> one, it's folk like McDonnell and Milne that I

> find appalling.

>

> Corbyn has spent his life spouting his principles

> from the back benches, safe in the knowledge that

> he'd never have to actually deliver or be really

> tested on his positions. Until now...

Yep, pretty much agree with all that. I think Corbyn is a decent guy, but way, way out of his depth. In "Animal Farm", he would be Boxer... and will probably meet a similar end.

[Blah Blah]

I think it is impossible to erally know what kind of PM Corbyn would be. I do think he would rely heavily on those around him to do all the work. So for me it is about looking at the people around him. I do think McDonnell would make a decent chancellor and the reason I say that is because he was in charge of finances at the GLA and stayed within budget until he made a stand against a further round of government cuts and was fired by Livingstone. So he has a track record of fiscal responsibility in that sense. And I broadly agree with his outlook of where the problems lie within our economy and with his outlook. He may give the impression of a revolutionaty bulldog, and that is very offputting for a lot of people, but in reality, he is no more radical than any radical chancellor before him.

[Earl Aelfheah]

My view is that Labour can?t be less competent than the Tories (who have delivered us Brexit and are now driving us towards a cliff edge).

[JohnL]

There's an emotion coming out of Brussels at the moment, it feels a bit like pity.

The EU are actually feeling sorry for the position Theresa May is in, or maybe they just don't want her gone because of the people that might take over.

[red devil]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> My view is that Labour can?t be less competent

> than the Tories (who have delivered us Brexit and

> are now driving us towards a cliff edge).

In terms of Brexit alone, yes, but the economy as a whole, I'm not so sure. I reckon a Tory Hard Brexit equates to a Labour Soft Brexit plus their spend spend economic policies. We're fooked with either of them...

[Earl Aelfheah]

I get the impression that they see Teresa as the least worse option. The idea of professional clown Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson being in charge dismays them / any sane person.

[red devil]

Agree that a Johnson led Tory party would be worse than Corbyn. Basically, until the progressive centre ground of all the parties get their act together, it's going to be varying degrees of shiteness whoever's in power...

[robbin]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> robbin Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Yes, he's full of it. He'll just say anything

> or

> > do anything if he thinks there's a vote in it

> for

> > him.

>

> Thank God we have May and Boris in charge for us

> then, they've never hypocritically shifted their

> positions on the EU to stay in power, have they?!

Ah, come on Rendel - you are better than that! Posing that accusative question while ignoring what I said in a post 1 minute later (which I posted deliberately to head off the usual reactionary comments) is a bit misleading isn't it? Or did you overlook me saying "Just like Theresa May and so many other politicians"?

Fair enough if you overlooked it, otherwise...

[Loz]

red devil Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > My view is that Labour can?t be less competent

> > than the Tories (who have delivered us Brexit and

> > are now driving us towards a cliff edge).

>

> In terms of Brexit alone, yes, but the economy as

> a whole, I'm not so sure. I reckon a Tory Hard

> Brexit equates to a Labour Soft Brexit plus their

> spend spend economic policies. We're fooked with

> either of them...

Yep, pretty much this. A choice between a nutjob right wing government and a nutjob left wing government is not much of a choice, really.

[EDOldie]

We all should have voted for PR when we had the chance.

[DulwichFox]

Well, in some countries IE North Korea, there is only one candidate. Voting is simple.

The Voting system here in the UK is a little more complex.

We have multiple choices but only 2 (perhaps 3) have any choice of being (s)elected.

For the average Joe on the street, in the long run, it makes very little difference who gets in.

DulwichFox