Admissions to Secondary School

[Msgee]

the comprehensive schools I am thinking of- as I stated upthread- are Peckham Academy and Deptford Green (see the other secondary admissions thread). If, as you say, a lot of your friends have been offered PA without having it on their list of choices, I'd reckon it to be a pretty fair assumption that they have places free.

and you don't need me to tell you that going to school a couple of miles away is hardly Orkney, now, do you

...do you??

:-S

[zeban]

Being punished new mother!!!!!! are you actually serious!!! get a grip, the world isn't punishing you! The system had to be changed because of the m/c who ended up 'punishing' (your word not mine) the actual locals who've lived in the area all of their lives. do you honestly think THAT is fair?!

And I think ALL people want a decent education and a decent NHS- not just the middle class!!!!

Lord help me. The reason why I want out of this country is because of our ridiculous class system with people ho have ridiculous attitudes like yours. It has nothing to do with the education sytem!

[tiddles]

I think one has a pretty good idea if a school really is a non starter. Sorry to be so judgemental but a very good friend who was allocated a school not on their list did exactly what Zeban suggested and got behind the school and sent him. After many attempts to get involved, after many instances of him and his friends being mugged within school and the staff too scared to do anything about it, she moved him. It seemed that there was not the strong staff or leadership in place able to contain the situation. Basically they were scared of the kids (or more to the point their parents) Yes we do need to give schools a chance (ie what kingsdale have done) but don't shout down people who have well and truly lost out in this lottery and feel angry and completley stuffed by it all. Before Kingsdale became an option, an awful lot of families moved to lewes to avoid this (I know of 8 families at least).

[Msgee]

can we just have a think about how Kingsdale 'became an option'?

it was because it succeeded-after a long struggle- in attracting a mixture of kids (and it could be argued that it hasn't really got that mixture now- but that's another thread). The school didn't change, the ED/mc perception of it changed. Who's to say that's not going to happen with, say, PA?

[Mark Dodds]

OK. Distance in itself is no issue to me personally. I was a relatively long way from both my high schools and walked/cycled and enjoyed doing that. But in that case I was not walking past two, three or more other suitable schools en route to mine - and there were children who bussed in from twenty miles or more and, believe it or not back then, even some who boarded during the week because the catchement in Northumberland was so geographically huge.

The overarching difficulty is that the whole education system needs to be made better for everyone. That way kids who don't really need the attention because they have the solid backing of solid parents will just get a first class education and the many kids who are not so fortunate to have so much behind them will have a fighting chance of reaching their true potential. Resources need to be poured into socialising children at nursery and primary so they are more than capable of being self propelled at learning by the time they are at high school age. Class sizes at early years should be much smaller than they are; 18 maximum and classes should have two adult support staff or trained parent volunteers alongside each teacher so that groups of six children are always in close contact with a good role model throughout their academic day.

After that my proposition for high school would be to have sufficient places locally so that children would not need to travel long distances - and to keep them relatively local in schools whose demographic mix fairly matched their catchment area. This would be with the ideal of helping create competent local communities where everyone learns to appreciate each other. I suppose there inevitably has to be some form of social engineering where there's a large catchment of severe deprivation but then the early years approach ought to ameliorate the worst.

The ideal would be to make state schools so good that rich people would not opt out of society and there would be no need for private education at all, apart from the desire of the rich to remain separate from the oiks.

[Msgee]

...the more I read this thread, the more I think a lottery is actually the only fair way to sort out Southwark schools, so that we don't have what increasingly looks like segregation of middle class and working class kids.

oh, and the more I agree with zeban :))

[zeban]

Mike Dodds your use of the term 'high school' has me wondering where you are from if you don't mind me asking? It's not a judgenment I'm just interested in how the two countries compare...

@ Msgee- Thanks! I grew up around Hackney and exactly the same thing happened in Stoke Newington that has happened in Dulwich. I genuinely do think it's the fairest way.

[Smiler]

I don't understand the arguments that it's wrong for "middle class" parents to try to avoid poor schools; or that they should send the kids and "get behind" them.

Surely, schools need to be good enough for people to want to send their kids there? Don't the leaders of schools / local authorities / parents of kids already at the school etc. have some responsibility?

And why should middle class parents' involvement necessarily help? Presumably, there are complex reasons why some schools are doing badly.

[Mark Dodds]

Triple post. SORRY for shouting.

[Mark Dodds]

I have a feeling that zeban and I could be friends if we were given the opportunity.

I just get confused by the terms - secondary / high / comprehensive / grammar upper / lower I went to two grammar schools and most of my friends from junior went to secondary modern. The first grammar school I went to was an absolutely vile place, I really hated it. It was despicably awful for me. I performed terribly there in every subject other than art, English and sports at which I excelled. I would have been kept back in the first year had my parents not moved out of Newcastle to get me out of that miserable hole. Then I was in mid Northumberland at an all boys grammar - King Edward VI which was relatively brilliant. It joined the adjacent all girls grammar and became comprehensive when my year started O levels. That was weird, an all boys, an all girls and two co-ed secondary mods mixing together. A couple of the brightest people I'd ever met came up from the secondary mods - they'd failed their eleven pluses - along with all my friends in Newcastle - and been sent to do vocational learning in schools where O level wasn't even an option. Stupid system.

Anyway a lot of my friends were from solid working class families and I loved them and still do and always will.

[zeban]

Well that depends on your definition of a 'poor school' doesn't it..? ;-)

Why should anyone have to send their children to a 'poor school.' Every involved, caring parent, NO MATTER WHAT CLASS- yes surprise surprise working class parents want their children to have a good education too! in fact just as much as middle class parents!!!! (shock horror), do not necessarily want to send their children to a poor school! BUT how can you make that school better. By mixing in people who are motivated and want to learn. A good head certainly helps too of course and great leadership. But if everyone is rubbishing them and not getting behind them then it's hard to create a school community- morale would be extremely low.

[Mark Dodds]

Seem to be having an invisible post happening here. Sorry if this makes it duplicate somehow. Maybe Iv'e been banned by mod for shouting, or because I live in Camberwell.

Msgee, I have to say Kingsdale became an option not because perception changed but due to it changing, I assume through the focus and attention of a visionary leader in the head teacher who, I believe, was a math teacher there when it was a zoo. It really has changed beyond recognition. A decade ago it was a dangerous place, children were being held up at knife point by their classmates and nothing was being done about it by senior management. Now, immediately upon entering, it is the most impressive high school I've ever visited. It oozes good values. The community at the school is palpably exciting, the children alert, bright and genuinely engaged with the whole. I was moved there in a way that no other school has touched me. Of all the schools I've visited, about ten I suppose, it is the only one where the head is black. It is possible this is part of the reason the school is SO good.

[Msgee]

as far as I know, the management and staff at Kingsdale were there long before people were keen to go there. When my son first went there, they had hods of empty places and a lot of people just wouldn't consider it. There has been no significant change of staffing in that period, or of management strategy.

I still think it's down to perception. The school has been great for a long time- but it's taken people a long time to see it. What I'm getting at is that the same thing could happen with other comps- it just needs middle class parents to take a punt- same as they did at KD. In that way, we'll have a genuinely comprehensive intake in the borough's schools, and they'll serve all parts of the community, not just a lucky few!

[Mark Dodds]

Go visit Peckham Academy and look at the mix of children, percentage of boys to girls and the overall feel of the place and the demographic mix too. It's probably not as bad as my first grammar school but I wouldn't want any child of mine to go through anything like that. It's definitely getting there but talk to the head about it too and see what you think then. Maybe in two or three years.

[Msgee]

Know what you mean, Mark- that sounds exactly like KD when my son first went there! It had a huuuge proportion of boys- now think there might even be more girls than boys in Y7/Y8

it'll only change in 2/3 years if people get on board and make it change, I reckon.

[new mother]

I think we are all far too long suffering. If you buy anything you deserve value for money.

We "buy" education via our tax system and we get something that far too many people - yes Z of all classes - are disastifised with.

Unfortunately, they/we do not view it as a product so they/we just accept what is doled out to us, instead of doing the equivalent of "taking it back to the shop".

People, the UK state education system isn't free. It is costing you a small fortune, almost as much as a private school place. (OK, one is paid from pre tax and one post tax, I admit)

Question - if you could have your tax allocation back, and add a little to it - say ?1000, would you not prefer to send your child to Dulwich College? THat is where we need to get to as a country. The state should not provide education. It is so clear - it simply isn't working.

Mark, and all other parents stuck trying to make the best of this, I feel for you. The desire for one's child to do well and be happy is very strong and it must be devastating to be on the receiving end of this appalling treatment. I havea greal deal of sympathy. How big a group are you? There must be some teachers in amongst it? are there enough skills to teach from home even as a stop gap?

[Msgee]

...and it's gotta be better than 5 years at Thomas the Apostle if you're not religious.

I do feel your pain. The whole system is an absolute nightmare. It's only when you've been/are going through it that you realise that "choice" is at best misleading and at worst a lie.

[Mark Dodds]

I'd be prepared to home educate but, ironically as my partner is a teacher, my partner is not prepared to go that route. Part of my motivation is that I own a pub and I could get the kids working long hours for next to nothing while they learned about life from all the customers.

No, seriously. You have a good point - we do pay for education and too many people get a bad deal. The situation is a lot better than it was a decade ago but it's nowhere near good enough. One thing that doesn't work for education in the UK is that it's always been a political football. I believe it should be secular and state controlled - no private or faith schools allowed. But then, to stop the protests from people who WANT to segregate their children from the masses, what should be available instead of the ridiculous patchwork of different systems we've made here MUST be an excellent education from early years to as late as the individual wants to learn, for all.

Then if parents faced with a great education for their kids really want to keep their children different and special, they can move abroad or do it themselves - with regular monitoring by the state of course.

On the interesting question of would I want my boy/s to go to Dulwich College (or Eton for that matter) based on the proposition of being able to afford it, the answer is 'no' definitely not - just as vehemently as 'no, definitely not' is the way we feel about the place at a faith school. Anyhow we're going to see St Thomas the Apostle next week see what giveth with the body of Christ and the blood of the Holy Ghost at Secondary level. Did I get that bit right? Isn't there some spirit in there somewhere?

[zeban]

OH MY GOD new mother!!!!!!!!!! seriously!!!!!!!... ''appalling' treatment'- this isn't appalling treatment, this is the way it has to be now.

I'm actually lost for words except to say I think mumsnet is more suited to you so you can congratulate yourself for being middle class and having money, and being better parents who only want the best for your children, scaring eachother into believing that everyone is intent on taking your privildeges from you and that you're being punished having to pay for the education of the masses whose taxes are going where exactly? the exact same place where yours are going! I mean what is the point in being wealthy and mc if you can't continously be pushed to the top of the list and get everything that you want?!

And the cuts you talk of will hit the poorest people the hardest.

[new mother]

Zeban,

PLease read my post.

None of the statements you make apply logically or after a moment's relfefction to my post.

Put succinctly, I am simply stating that we are expected to pay for bad education. If education were another "product", like a pair of shoes that fell part immediately, we would not accept what we had "bought".

You are right to say that the poorest currently get the wrost deal. Yes, and Mark will probably sort out his problem adn his son will end up with a good education becuase Mark will put time and energy into fixing it. The mother of 5 who works at Tesco hasn't got time to fix the education issues of this country so her child suffers most. You are right. THis is why we have a responsibility to fix the entire system so that those weaker than us can benefit too.

Zeban, I am saddened to see that you have viewed my post through the prism of your pre-existing views. Please comment in future on what is actually there, not what you thought you had read or had been expecting to read on the EDF.

[zeban]

And I do not believe education should be seen as a product, nor any other public service. So to view it like that saddens me- yes I understand what point you're trying to get across- that we contribute through our taxes to education so technically it's not free- BUT to liken education or any public service as a product disturbs me.

'Those weaker than us?' Why is the mother of 5 working in Tesco weaker than you? Not having money doesn't make you weaker, it makes you stronger. Being a mother of 5 makes you stronger, not weaker, and doing a menial job to stay afloat definitely makes you stronger, not weaker.

Believe me she will find the time and energy to try to get a good deal for her chidren because she loves her children and wants them to get a good education. She will have to work harder than Mark or his friends mind you, because she doesn't have the money to buy priviledges for herself or her children. And she's fine with that. What she doesn't need is for you speaking up for her and supposedly understanding her needs.

It is in the words that you choose to use that disturbs me- your overall argument I get but it is steeped in language that makes me very suspicious of your deep down beliefs.

[Mark Dodds]

Zeban, all services, whether commercial, charitable, private or public incur costs of production and their value HAS to be measured to see if it provides acceptable value against cost because, one way or another, all services ARE products.

If education is failing people then it is a poor product and it has to be complained about. If it's not changed to meet acceptable standards of delivery it is failing everyone from kids to teachers to society. Catering is the same - if I'm serving flat warm cloudy beer and grey chewy food I will go out of business as customers will abandon my pub because we're not delivering what they want or expect. If on the other hand we're doing a range of changing bright clear hand crafted cask ales that are kept to perfection served alongside grandma's best beef and dumplings with real pork scratchings and vegetarian root vegetable crisps for them vegans they will queue round the block to get it. With education it is the same - deliver great, inspirational teaching in good surroundings and before long everyone will want to have some; make kids bored, pissed off and feeling like learning is not for them and soon a school will fall apart at the seams and become a no go zone.

Services should be delivered well whatever they are whether public or private or else there is no point in providing the service in the first place.

A lot of private sector stuff is produced and delivered very badly just as much as a lot of public sector stuff is. The difference is the private sector covers up its tracks better than the public and gets away with it - because it's private. There isn't a private sector service which by and large couldn't in principle be done better by different means, including public ownership, as long as the strategic vision and the ambition to provide good service and good value is held by everyone involved in the organisation and they are trained well enough to be able to deliver that.

By the way - We all step in the same dog poo and unless very well off we all suffer the same stuff when it comes to getting a good education for our kids. As for Tesco woman with five kids - that's me - although I only have two kids I earn less than the minimum wage and work more hours than anyone else I know. What does that mean? I'm working class or middle class or what? Or does it mean I just earn crap money because I own a tied pub and have to work longer and harder to make up the gap in earnings? I have a great background provided by highly educated parents and I have a fairly good education and on top of that I have worked at other forms of learning all my adult life. Even so I still earn a pittance. Fundamentally though I know my kids will be OK whatever they have to go through at school but fundamentally also I do not want their schooling to be hard and grim. That's not what education should be about neither for mine or for Tesco woman's children. The main difference between us is that by and large Tesco woman will feel she has less right to state her feelings as loudly as I do whereas I believe it is my democratic and civic duty to do so. After that we're in the same boat.

[zeban]

Of course services should be delivered well. But are the arguments here that you didn't get a school you originally wanted and you're a bit peeved with the randomness of the system, or that you're genuinely concerned that the schools given to you are really bad? And surely if schools have been turned around with local support then what makes a crap school is questionable and can be changed and that the solution doesn't only lay with creating another school.

From what I understand the schools are pretty good around this way but there are a few that are over subscribed, so some parents are having to take a chance with schools that may not have quite built up a really good reputation for themselves. I'm sorry this doesn't sound very 'appalling' to me and it doesn't mean they're being failed by the system.

[Mark Dodds]

My concern is about the whole - my partner and I knew ten years ago we might be in this situation. There's not enough places at all let alone good enough really good schools. And there definitely needs to be another school somewhere close for Camberwell / East Dulwich. I do say there are far more good schools now than ten years ago - Labour did achieve that - the situation IS a lot better than it was.

That reminds me. Someone above assumed there would be places at Peckham Academy. To reiterate - ALL Southwark schools are FULL - Forty Three Kids Were Officially NOT Offered a Place Anywhere in Southwark. That's a lot of not offered a place.

Good night.

[zeban]

.