Admissions to Secondary School

[Belle]

westof Wrote:

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> Mark Dodds Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > > PART of the three hour discussion on Monday

> night

> > was about languages. Mandarin was being pushed

> > along with Arabic. Latin was not part of the

> mix

> > really, other than Toby Young's obsession with

> > it.

>

> Mandarin, Arabic & Latin would ALL be progressive

> languages to offer in an inner-city comprehensive

> IMO. (as well as European languages).

>

> If you go on to study law, medicine, sciences etc

> surely having done even a bit of Latin at school

> would stand you in good stead. (I say this having

> not studied Latin, or law, medicine or science so

> feel free to put me right).

>

> And (cynically) if you really want to attract

> enough middle class kids (to get a balance NOT to

> swamp the school) then "we offer Latin" is handy

> shorthand for "we can be the right school for your

> child".

You're right about Latin, and it has many more benefits - excellent foundation for learning many European languages, good skills for grasping language learning at all, helps with understanding the English language in fact and application/meaning of many of our words. It's a good disclipine in logic because of the way it's structured. People don't realise that learning Latin isn't just 'learning a dead language', it's history, art, cultural/civilisation studies, architectural history, literature (e.g. if you've studied the Aeneid you're well placed for handling Dante and Milton). Before I get jumped on, I want to stress that I'm not arguing that it's essential to the curriculum, like most people I'd happily see it as an 'extra' especially in circumstances where beggars can't be choosers. But I just worry that arguments that it's useless/unnecessary could just as easily be applied to a variety of arts subjects, and then we go down the road where e.g. art is not seen as important to the curriculum. At one point in Scotland a few years back (under the last Tory administration), primary school art was under threat for this very reason. Surely the word education covers more than just vocational/practical training.

[James Barber]

If someone is looking for a site Grove Park has a huge old building previously used as a Home Office Training centre - so it has the correct planning classification.

It would be good to see that building and its site brought back into use.

[Mark Dodds]

@BB100 Thanks for asking; nothing yet, just a bunch of appeals gone in with a general indication that dropping off appeals is a total waste of time, paper, ink and fuel. Appeals against what? We have no grounds for appeal, neither does anyone else unless there's been a cock up in the first round and ESN or sibling priority or other stuff has been ignored.

Parents who work to set up a school should, of course, get a guaranteed place for their child. Just look at the mess we've made of education up to this point. We are flawed, we are human, we need motivation and what better motivation - it's a LOT of work for no financial gain - could there be than to know your child will benefit and get into a brilliant school that reflects your dream education set up?

@Belle / westof. I did Latin at a grim grammar school. After my experience I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but the experience was horrible. 'Latin is a dead language' are the first words Miss Sargeant uttered and the last ones most of us remembered. She really got us in the palm of her hand. Still, I suppose I know where the root of puerile lies.

Ah yes: amo amas amat amamus amatis amant. Deyz waz da dayz

[Ko]

hi james, people have been asking on the couple of schools threads about whether the dulwich hospital site could be used? could you please give an update on the thread about this? thanks

James Barber Wrote:

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> If someone is looking for a site Grove Park has a

> huge old building previously used as a Home Office

> Training centre - so it has the correct planning

> classification.

> It would be good to see that building and its site

> brought back into use.

[skyblue]

Just noticed in Se22 magazine that the next Dulwich Community Council meeting is at 7pm 28th April at the community centre Darrell Road. One of the items for the agenda is primary and secondary school places and another is the future of the East Dulwich Hospital. Annoyingly it is the week we are on holiday but I will be interested to hear what happens.

[James Barber]

Latest on secondary school places is that 10 Southwark children are without a secondary school place. Of these 10, 2 are girls living in SE21 and one SE15 boy with no SE22 residents now affected, remainder are from north of the borough. Huge improvement from 34/44 SE22 kids without a place. Clearly no guarantee they've been allocated places they orignally wanted though.

[Mark Dodds]

Thanks for posting this James. Must just point out the obvious to keep this on track:

The children who have been offered a place will no doubt not have got places on their list - and there still is the matter of the TEN children remaining without a place at all.

Being put into and then left in limbo about your future so young is not acceptable collateral damage of an education system that needs fixing.

What then of course about the 200 families whose children were allocated unsatisfactory places not on their lists at all?

[Mark Dodds]

Here are the beginnings of the new community school being planned with Katharine Birbalsingh's considerable drive behind it: http://michaelacommunityschool.co.uk/blog

[Queenie23]

Mark, I am not trying to belittle your obviously huge effort into trying to change the education set up in SE London, but I'm afraid that you are mistaken in going down the free school route.

Free schools are Tory led - waste of money that should be going into the current education system. By doing this you are taking away money that is needed in our schools.

I urge you to get behind your local secondary school - you are obviously someone who cares deeply - so use that passion in supporting the current secondary school and make sure that instead of this government slashing funding for schools, those schools get this money. Comprehensive education needs committed parents - you are one. Please don't get swayed by this government who couldn't care less about most people - only those with money and those that choose to educate their children privately.

Please don't support idiots like Toby Young, who would love to send his kids to private school but unfortunately was abit too horny for his own good and managed to have 4 children. He has never even been to his local secondary school but chooses to belittle it because it is not middle class and white enough for him.

[Fuschia]

Good post queenie

Couldn't agree more

[zeban]

I'm with you too Queenie

[Mark Dodds]

Thanks for the advice Queenie. Couple of things really; Which local secondary school would I get behind then exactly? St Michael's & All Angels or Sacred Heart? What other means of getting a decent school up and running might there be as long this lot are in government? I don't have a lot of time any more for politicians of any description, only for people who do a good job, irrespective of their leanings left or right.

Or perhaps I'll wait a while and put my energy into the all boys Catholic school it looks like my son will be going to, the one that wasn't on our list of poncey 'unrealistic' secular coed preferences?

[Belle]

In fairness, getting behind your local secondary school is fine: if you've been allocated a place at it. If you've been allocated one some distance a way, it makes no difference how much you support the 'local' option. I think that's what Mark has been getting at - the perceived gap in provision. From what I've read, most of the dissatisfied parents on the forum are so because they're getting given places which are too far away - not local at all.

[Mark Dodds]

Thank you Belle, you have the point. That aside the whole system is utterly senseless.

[Fuschia]

But this situation has come about because of the fragmentation of the LEA system and lack of a strategic oversight. More schools, free schools, opene din response to parental demand but not necessarily an objective lack of places, will just leach money out of the system and further divide it.

[Mark Dodds]

Patently there IS a lack of places. Forty children in Southwark did not get a place, over 200 were offered a place at a school that evidently is unacceptable to the parents and, clearly, thousands of children get a shoclkingly substandard education that afflicts them, and society, for the rest of their lives.

It is glaringly obvious that what really should happen is a total overhaul of our entire school system but that, obviously, is not on the cards nor will it ever be... Making our education system work well for everyone is far too sensible a need for society to make it a priority for us as a nation.

So for the time being I'll see where this goes with the Michaela School and report back as and when I can.

[Belle]

Yes, am not particularly keen on free schools myself, was just responding to the 'support your local school' suggestion.

Edited to add - regardless of whether I agree with free schools or the co-ed Harris suggestion (personally prefer the latter), I do applaud parents who are looking for solutions.

[Fuschia]

Mark those numbers wouldn't justify building a new secondary school in the usual scheme of things

[intexasatthe moment]

There wouldn't be a shortage of secondary school places if the Academy@Peckham ( co-ed ,huge site ,great transport links ,perfect for "getting behind " hadn't reduced it's roll by 60 places .

Though according to Southwark the shortage is down to St Michaels and All Angels not having any admissions due to rebuild .

And it's future reopening as an all boys ARK Academy .

Although of course ,in the long term ,Harris's move at Peckham will probably assist it's reinvention .

No vacancies so no need to offer places to all comers ,grow your own intake by having a primary school on site ....

But I agree - this is what you get when make all your schools Academies and such like .

And now the primaries are going down that route .

Heaven help us .

[Fuschia]

James said there are 10 pupils ATM with no offer

I presume Peckham academy is reducing its intake predicting they would not be full/ numbers dropping

[prickle]

Totally agree with you intexas. All the secondaries in ED are academies, all doing their own thing. LA has v. little influence now. Adding another (free) school into the mix in Lambeth (ie not local) is not going to improve options for children of ED.

LA has to pull its weight and come up with a borough-wide strategy for secondary provision for the next decade or more. James and other local councillors please do something!

[intexasatthe moment]

Fuschia - Peckham Academy have reduced their intake by 60 with effect from Sept 2011 .

They've also opened a nusery ( 60 places ) on site as a forerunner to a primary school .

I think it's strategic ,to improve the school .

All done with full knowledge of Southwark Admissions Forum .

And of course soon Southwark won't even have to have an admissions forum if the current white paper proposals are enshrined in law .

Sleepwalking......

[Queenie23]

Mark Dodds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks for the advice Queenie. Couple of things

> really; Which local secondary school would I get

> behind then exactly? St Michael's & All Angels or

> Sacred Heart? What other means of getting a decent

> school up and running might there be as long this

> lot are in government? I don't have a lot of time

> any more for politicians of any description, only

> for people who do a good job, irrespective of

> their leanings left or right.

>

> Or perhaps I'll wait a while and put my energy

> into the all boys Catholic school it looks like my

> son will be going to, the one that wasn't on our

> list of poncey 'unrealistic' secular coed

> preferences?

Firstly mark - I think you are referring to St Thomas (the all boys catholic school). I have a friend who's son goes there, she is not at all religious and her son is doing wonderfully well. Secondly there is so much movement around secondary schools that schools will be offering places right up to the last minute. I know of someone last year who was offered her preferred school the day before term started. Even if you don't get your "poncey unrealistic secular coed preferences" then yes, get behind the school that your son goes to - apply to be a governor, use your passion to help that school become the best it can be. Support your son's school, don't waste money that should be going into existing education.

[zeban]

Finally, some sense on this thread

[Mark Dodds]

Thank you Quennie and zeban. AS IT HAPPENS I am quite well informed and what I've deduced from being well informed has led me down the route I'm taking.

It's good to know that Queenie's friend's son is doing wonderfully at an all boys Catholic school that accepts more Pentecostal Christians than it does Catholics, presumably because the Catholics don't think it's as good as other Catholic schools they have a choice in sending their children to, as well as many of the non faith children who get passed its way because there is nowhere else more appropriate for them to go.

None of that is the point. The point is I do not agree with the principles behind faith schools or with those of private education and I'm trying to do something effective that may help redress some of the grotesque imbalance in the system. Maybe it'll make the imbalance even greater; whatever; I'm doing something instead of nothing.

And, Queenie, IF my son goes to ST Thomas the Apostle I WILL get behind it, while he is there. Thanks again for the advice.