Calton Ave/Dulwich Village junction

[Lucyalexandra]

Anyone on here know whether it's true that the works will continue till February?! School run nightmare for those that have no choice but to drive some days ... I have to because I have a few in different schools/nurseries. What is the ultimate goal of it all, does anyone know?

[singalto]

I heard it would last until March! March!

[Sqiggles]

This is all part of the cycle quietway works. Southwark insisted on rushing on with the works even though there was much local opposition. Quite why the works had to start just as the schools went back? But it is indeed chaos.

[Lucyalexandra]

it's a health hazard having all these cars clogged here for hours on end. It took me two hours earlier as I was mainly at a standstill. Cars blowing out fumes non stop right by the local schools in the village. awful!

[rendelharris]

You're driving a car and complaining about the fumes. Brilliant.

[Reg Smeeton]

Have they published the final plans anywhere? Did the people's campaign for roundabouts instead of traffic lights have any impact?

[Lucyalexandra]

I do appreciate the irony of complaining about fumes while driving - but I am referring to build up of fumes with hundreds of cars just getting stuck, as we were, pumping fumes out for in excess of 30 minutes on the same road right by a primary and Infants school. Sadly this was one occasion when I did genuinely need the car.

[alice]

The wait is so long. Consider turning engine off.

[Lucyalexandra]

Might try that - but what happens is you edge along slowly inch by inch as all the side roads try to get in the queue too and understandably force their way in having also been stuck for in excess of 20 mins! Really chaotic.

[Robert Poste's Child]

End of Feb according to the notice put through my door. I asked James Barber if he could do anything to influence this on his thread a few weeks ago but as he's clearly been dealing with family matters recently haven't followed up with him.

I cycle through this already busy and aggressive junction every day and now rush hour has returned it's pretty frightening. It seems that more cyclists are jumping the lights or using the pavement, not in an aggressive way but presumably out of concerns for safety. It must also be unpleasant for parents taking children to the schools and for the school on the corner to have this going on beside them until the middle of next term. I fear it's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt. The inevitable chorus of car horns all the way up Court Lane isn't helping, either.

[Robert Poste's Child]

PS: I appreciate it's frustrating when your car's stuck in traffic but please do think about air quality for all the children going to school who can't get away from that all day. Also for local residents - I know people on this forum tend to assume that everyone in the village is affluent but Dekker Road and some of the bottom end of Calton Ave are owned by the Dulwich Estate and there are some residents who may not have the means or mobility to avoid the situation.

[rch]

Here's a link to a PDF of the approved new junction design:-

https://turneyandburbage.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/dulwich-village-junction-changes-2017.pdf

Residents are trying to communicate with each other, as I don't think there is anything relevant on the council website, although I'll keep trying to track down formal council info.

[rch]

From a pedestrian perspective, this design is awful.

There are minutes from a recent council cabinet meeting that stated that all objections and representations were considered and rejected in favour of the now-approved design.

We had a far better junction design consulted on and even funded back in 2008, but this was undermined by political machinations... otherwise the better scheme would have been built almost a decade ago for a fraction of the cost.

As part of this design process back in 2008, a double roundabout scheme was also submitted by engineers - who recommended it as the most efficient scheme for pedestrians, cyclists, and even cars - but politicians wouldn't even agree to let this design go out to a public consultation.

So, now we're stuck with this expensive mess...

[Robert Poste's Child]

Earlier I walked past and they were using angle grinder on the pavement outside the school - no screens up so huge amounts of dust on a windy day blowing into the school grounds and impossible for passers-by to avoid breathing in.

[ianr]

RPC, thanks for the reminder. I saw some pavement grinding on my walk to Peckham the other day. Not even the workman seemed to be wearing any protection. I'm personally much more alarmed by the thought of the possible effect of these -- if I have to pass them I usually run, at a distance, with breath held and mouth covered -- than I am by a passing smelly diesel vehicle. And I don't remember ever seeing anything to protect passers-by. So I resolved to start looking it up. The first thing I've lit on now, http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis54.pdf so far seems to confirm my fears: "Recent HSE-funded research has suggested that over 650 construction deaths from silica-related lung cancer occurred in Great Britain in 2004." So some heavy reading ahead, starting at http://www.hse.gov.uk/search/search-results.htm?gsc.q=stone%20cutting%20dust%20control; then on to the legal stuff.

[mikeb]

Looking at that plan confirms that a double roundabout would be the best way to use all of that extensive road space.

[edhistory]

Did anyone with an inside track check whether the date of the works contract was earlier than the date of the Council decision?

[nunhead_man]

Double roundabout !!!

Have you ever tried to negotiate a double roundabout on a bicycle with motorised tin boxes trying to knock you over as if in a game of skittles?

[rch]

I've attached a jpeg of the proposed Double Roundabout design for discussion.

As you can see from the engineer's notes, this was calculated to be the most efficient junction scheme to serve this oddly offset junction of roads for all users.

All the cycling groups that I consulted with at the time were in favour of it, and I believe that this layout formed the basis of the recent residents' campaign to have the council consider as an alternative (which could have easily been tweaked to take into account a multitude of parameters) to the scheme that's being implemented.

edhistory - from what I could follow, this junction scheme was signed off appropriately... I think the contractors were actually held off for a week or so in order for the cabinet to formally sign off on the paperwork.

My guess is that there are some convoluted devolved funding issues that pushed this decision through (we can discuss) and now it will conveniently be completed before the May 2018 council elections.

Just to be clear... I'm not trying to be political about this, exactly the opposite.

As I keep saying, the Dulwich/East Dulwich residents really need to start sticking together in a non-political manner in order to be able to lobby all the elected political parties in tandem to make decisions that benefit the community as a whole, rather than indulging huge sums of public funding in political point-scoring.

[shoshntosh]

That looks very good indeed, rch. What is the current plan?

[rendelharris]

Sorry Robin, don't know what it would do to traffic flow but having to get right, hug a roundabout to the right with traffic entering from the left (most drivers do not appear to think "give priority to traffic from the right" applies if it's only a bicycle) then immediately join another roundabout with the same again would definitely not be a good solution for cyclists.

Personally I don't really find the junction as it stands much of a problem on a bike (though I am big, fast, confident and experienced), but that "solution" is a recipe for disaster for cyclists.

ETA Looking at that model again, it appears only to address what would be best for traffic (i.e. motorized vehicle) flow with no consideration of cycle safety.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Spot on, RH. Also the diagram doesn't appear to be to scale as the junction is less offset in reality and the main road wider.

All the junction needs to make it safer for cyclists and pedestrians is for the traffic lights to give cyclists a short head start from the Calton Ave / Turney Rd sides and for all pedestrians to cross simultaneously (until now this happened in theory but the right turn from DV into Calton Ave meant the green man came on at different times), including diagonally. Basically as for the JAGS junction - which didn't take six months to do, either.

[wulfhound]

This time around the cycle groups asked for traffic restrictions on Turney Road, and pedestrian improvements / road capacity reduction on the Court Lane / Calton Avenue side. But (for better or worse, and I realise views on this differ) they were roundly ignored.

"Roundabouts as good for cycling", let alone double roundabouts, is 1990s thinking. Works for the big-fast-and-ugly likes of Rendelharris and myself, but won't help anyone slower, less-confident and less agile.. not something I'd be comfortable using with my family, for example.

[Mick Mac]

From a quick look it seems all that is really changing is the priority is now carlton avenue rather than court lane.

be interesting to see how it works out.

[rch]

Unfortunately, the only way to get people out of cars in the Dulwich area is to improve public transportation.

Bear in mind that the double roundabout scheme was just a preliminary outline proposal which council engineers and cycle groups were already proposing alterations for. For instance, the roundabout size could be reduced so that a separate cycle lane could be created.

We had all worked very closely together on the changes to the main Village roundabout, which was done with LCN funding (London Cycle Network), a variation of the newer Quietway funding. So, the levels of cooperation were already in place.

The idea at the time was to have some kind of continuity through the Village for cars, cyclists, and pedestrians but this concept has disintegrated now. Councillors at the DCC meeting on Saturday were stressing nothing more should be done until the "holistic" review of traffic flows is completed, which I agree is what needs to happen.

Personally, I think the signalled junction scheme that was designed, consulted, and funded back in 2008 was the best way forward (better designed than the current signalled scheme), but it was worth having a detailed look at if the double roundabout scheme could work.

But it looks like the current works are going to go through, no matter what. Unfortunately, this new junction scheme is extremely pedestrian unfriendly... which could be a big problem in this high footfall area.