Loud churchy religious types (Lounged)

[Maurice]

I am not anti-black. I'm trying to point out that pursuing your claim against this church will likely result in you being lablled anti-black. Be careful. It's a real problem and the facts I detialed are why nothing is being done about it.

[dulwichmum]

Dear Maurice,

My mother and her chums park in an antisocial manner outside a church on a regular basis. I have not joined into this thread because I thought it was about her. She is not African. She is Irish. She is one of the loudest churchy religious types you could ever hope to avoid. Fact...

Brenda not only attends her own parish church in Beckenham, she also hangs out with a group of anti social Roman Catholics at St Thomas Moore in Lordship Lane.

Have you ever seen The Reverend Ian Paisley on TV? He is terrified of my mother...FACT.

Have you ever been to an Easter Vigil or a Christmas Midnight Mass? They do not confine their worship to normal office hours either. Fact.

Can I suggest that if you have a problem with our African community or any other ethnic group, you take it somewhere else. The Forum will not accommodate racism.

[Maurice]

I do not have a problem myself. But as clearly explained, it is a huge problem in South London. Trying to resolve it has already led, and will lead, to cries of racism. I'm merely stating that. And inevitably, the people who complain defend themselves with similar arguments to yours. Leaving the Council in a pickle. They've even formed a task force and can't figure a way to resolve it.

As I said, I'm only playing 'devil's advocate' (ahem) to explain if you take matters further, you could be branded with a red 'R' on your chest.

It is a bit ironic that I'm being branded a racist but I'm not the one complaining about black churches. People here will get their back's up and say they aren't either, they are complaining about loud churches. But those churches (here) are all black. That will lead to some friction. It already has.

[dulwichmum]

"Loud" churches are not all black.

Have you never heard of the Charismatic Renewal?

I wish I hadn't heard of them, but they have been clapping loudly at every family event I have attended for years. Look around.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

What about tha anti-social parking in my street from the Catholic school down the end of my road. They are load, anti-social and not on the whole African.

[Thequietone]

Perhaps if we could find a church for estate agents we wouldnt be accused of racism.............

Paul

[Maurice]

For my sins I had to attend a charasmatic circus once. Can you tell me where there is one causing issues locally that is predominately white or non-black? Perhaps that would give Southwark a broader issue. Times and addresses of such churches causing havoc please. I will write today and complain.

I'm familiar with the Catholics. They are many things but hardly loud.

[Domitianus]

Fair play to Maurice for having the guts to point out an elephant in the room (whether he is correct or not, I am not sure, as I have not conducted extensive research into noise levels in different churches). I think it rather sad and a reflection on the almost Macarthyite, PC intimidation that typifies our modern society that anyone who mentions differences between the cultures or practices of different racial groups is automatically branded "racist". It is a knee-jerk response by people who seem to want to prove that they are more PC than the next person but ultimately it actually stifles debate and the ability to actually point out and investigate certain facts (or what people believe to be facts and which cannot be proven or disproven unless we have the guts to state, analyse and debate them).

I think the point that Maurice is making is that certain churches and certain evangelical denominations tend to attract congregations that are predominantly from a certain racial group, eg. Afro-Caribbean. The style of worship of some of these congregations tends often to be more effusive and downright loud than other, dare I say it (I dare!), white Anglo-Saxon congregations that are more staid or sedate in their worship. I take Maurice's comments to be a caution that if people complain about those places of worship that tend to be loudest they may well be complaining predominantly about Afro-Caribbean congregations. In the PC social tyranny that we live under he is warning that anyone making such a complaint may well face allegations of racism by those who make their living from detecting discrimination where none exists and who are too cowardly to actually do their jobs in case someone else plays the race card which, as we all know, is kind of a trump card whether there is any evidence to support such racism allegations or not.

I think it a pathetic indictment of our society that, from what Maurice says, our councils are paralysed into inaction by those dangling the Damoclean sword that if they actually carry out their noise-abatement responsibilities someone will come along and accuse them of racism. Well done, Maurice, for having the guts to point these things out. Of course it doesn't make you racist.

Funny, though, that no-one would raise a word of protest if we made the observation that American tourists tend to be quite loud and over-enthusiastic (indeed we even had a thread on this very subject on this very forum) or stated that the English tend to be more reserved and less overtly emotional than other nationalities, or that the Irish are known for liking a drop or two, or that the French have an appreciation for food and good living. I suggest it is a form of inverse-racism that we can observe and state certain cultural/national traits about other nationalities or populations but have to run scared and tread on eggshells of noting certain traits or characteristics of predominantly Afro-Caribbean religious denominations in South London.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I don't think we live in a McArthyite society Dom... there are certainly people who like to find offense at everything and remind one of the Millie Tant character in Viz

And yet, and yet...

One only has to listen to phone-in radio shows to hear many a person, all too clearly racist but feeling they can't QUITE come out and say what they want. Liberal guilt about (in particular) black cultures hasn't arrived out of nowhere

If we lived in a society which didn't have casual racism as part of a daily environment then "plain speaking" might be more possible. It's not just liberal opinion which creates the climate where offending people becomes a touchy subject

It's not racist, offensive or "pc" or "non-pc" to say that the church services to which this thread refers are from an afro-carribean culture. As it happens, I think religious worship from any culture, be it Anglo-Saxon or Afro-Carribean is in itself misguided ... but if it's what people want to do then by all means go ahead. Just don't expect special treatment to non-believers. But Maurice is no martyr for pointing out the bleedin obvious. What gets peoples' radars twitching is the reason behind the complaint

I live close to a church which has these services (or have done.. to be honest I haven't heard a peep for a while) - in any case, for an hour on a Sunday morning it doesn't bother me. Not compared to the yapping dog in the garden of the near-neighbour who let's it whine for hours on end...or the 30-40 something neighbour who still thinks it's 1995, and plays trance at 4am.

If I was to complain about the noise eminating from churches SPECIFICALLY, then I would like to think I am noise sensitive and have a whole bunch of other noises I would like to complain about as well. Living in London, I'm spoilt for choice

To complain about ONLY black people singing/using drums as a noise source does leave one open to accusations of , at best, suspicious motivation. It isn't MCarthyite to be fair to everyone and to be aware of peoples prejudices. And despite what the right--wing media would have us believe, white people JUST ARE NOT persecuted in modern western society.

[downsouth]

I'm inclined to agree with Sean. There's no issue saying the church is African or Caribbean. But to use a broad brush such as Maurice's is disingenuous and also plays in to the whole anonymity on the net - "I'll say what I want because you can't see me". I find the most abhorrent views on the internet - Maurice's being nowhere in such leagues - that such 'normal folk' wouldn't say in the real world.

Just as a follow on, I very often note an undercurrent to your posts Maurice that forever seem to find themselves back in the same place. It's a shame your contributions are so singular.

And to the point of the post: if they are loud go and speak to the pastor. If that doesn't work speak to the council who I am sure won't be giving these guys extra special treatment, if they do contact one of the local journalists with your 'plight' it will give them something to do.

[Buzzard]

As I mentioned above, this thread was motivated not by crypto-racism that I had managed to hide behind my white guilt, but by the fact that my wife and I like to sit in the garden at the weekend without being disturbed by loud noise in the neighbourhood.

I do object to Maurice dragging race into it though, because he seems confused as to what racism is. For there to be anything in his proposition that "It always amuses me how the most liberal can't quite bring themselves to admit they are complaining about a race-based issue", there must be an issue of race at stake. What is it? Is anyone seriously saying that black people are by nature more noisy than white people? Are they genetically predisposed to play amplified drums of a Sunday morning? Has evolution endowed them with a propensity to take all the parking spaces on my road at the weekend so that I have carefully to time my trips to Sainsbury's?

I doubt it. If not, then it is not a race issue, there is no elephant in the room, there is no issue of liberalism or "political correctness" (whatever that means) to object to.

It's sloppy thinking, Maurice.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

I think Maurice is not a happy chappie, because his posts are often reactionary. Maybe he needs the services of the ED massage parlours mentioned on the other thread. What's your preference Mr M? I'm sure you will find a little light relief if you prowl the newsagents windows.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm getting older Buzzard and empathise completely with the "I just want a quiet Sunday morning without any racket" sentiment

But if I had a garden to sit in (pauses momentarily and wonders why that isn't the case) I'm not sure the sound you describe (as I understand it) would be that much of a problem. That's not me trying to deny it is a problem for you, just.... there are worse is what I'm saying

All that said, after the weekend I have had, they clacking of the keys as I type is a major noise problem for me ;-)

[Buzzard]

Believe me, Chavster, the knowledge that I only a phone call away from a professional rub n tug is all that keeps me from going crazy.

Sean, not sure I get your point. Are you saying that I should shut up because I am privileged enough to have a garden? Is that how it works? Mate, It's not that much to aspire to, and hardly lifts me above the ordinary.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Buzzard - most definitely am not saying anything of the sort. Sorry if I wasn't clear. And please don't "shut up" about anything

I was simply making the point that other things would disturb me more - I only mentioned me not having a garden as an attempt at self-deprecation

[Domitianus]

I can fully understand Buzzard's frustration. I imagine Sunday may be the one day Buzzard gets the chance to relax in his garden and it is the one day of the week when his garden is subject to noise pollution - a grim and irritating irony. One of the things I really notice about London is the noise, particularly when I have been elsewhere and really had the chance to appreciate quiet and return to London afterwards. What I mean by this is that even when it is 'quiet' in London, it is still noisy - there is this constant, low-level ambient noise that raises stress levels to some degree. Having some peace and quiet is an absolute Godsend (no pun intended!) and I can appreciate Buzzard's intense frustration at having that polluted. Noise pollution is something that can only really be understood when it has been experienced. A number of years ago I lived two floors above a woman who was, quite literally, clinically insane and would make an unbelievable racket all night long. I would not have believed beforehand how much my life would have been affected by her behaviour but it was simply unendurable - and I was TWO SOUNDPROOFED CONCRETE FLOORS away from her. The girl in the flat between us had to spend time living at her mum's place.

[mockney piers]

Yeah, the missus and I lived for about 4 months in a place that ostensibly seemed a great flat, and for 3 weeks it was.

Then the family who lived upstairs returned and life became hellish. There was absolutely no soundproofing between the floors and every single step thundered down from above. Add into the mix two young children who loved running about upstairs, and it was really no joy.

We were going through a really rocky patch in our relationship at the time, and it wasn't until we moved out (the landlord was having the flat repossessed by the bank, he was a dodgy operator at every level) into a place with peace and quiet, and we finally started getting good nights' sleep that we realised how much it had affected our lives, and came damn near to breaking us up.

For the record, we never blamed the family, they were lovely and nothing they could do, but I never want to live through that again, it was like chinese water torture!!

[*Bob*]

My first flat in London was a nightmare.

Terrible conversion.. the couple upstairs played the same track over.. and over .. and OVER again for days on end. They vacuumed at 3am. We could hear they fighting (physically fighting.. things being thrown etc). They left taps running and went out for the weekend so we could hear the "ssssssssss..." of the cold water tank for the duration. Madness.

[Brendan]

Often makes me wonder why conversions are generally more expensive than purpose built flats when they are always so problematic.

[Buzzard]

Wilko, Sean.

We moved to ED because my previous flat was on a main road in the posh part of Hackney (ho ho) and escaping the noise from the traffic (particularly buses) was the prime motivation to come here. Give me the aeroplanes overhead anyday, but spare me the amplified drumming.

[snorky]

I sold a place in Brockly SE4 some time ago - on paper , it was fantastic, the reality was horrendous - evrry creak and footstep was amplified - you could hear every workd of a drunken conversation and every single note of Elton John they quietly played after getting back late on a friday night ( why is it always Elton John ? )

its just been sold again - in the region of ?350K

for a 2 bed flat !

In Brockley !

With no soundproofing!

an exopensive mistake for someone sadly

[mockney piers]

Yeah, the place I mentioned (on east dulwich grove) remained empty for ages, but it now appears to be occupied. I dread to think what they paid!!

[SeanMacGabhann]

Funnily enough I went to lunch and read this:

Brooker - Noisy Neighbours

[AnotherPaul]

These 'churches' are a joke. Just a load of shit singing, bad music and self righteous guff.

They think being loud makes up for the made-upness of what they're doing.

Can individuals issue cease and desist notices to churches?

ap

[peckhamasbestos]

convocation weekend is my fave!!!

snorky - ( why is it always Elton John ? )

yeah, why is it, always?