Child Abuse???? advice please

[Cora]

Sorry, another thought is to try and find out who the local Health Visitor is and report it to them.

[civilservant]

I read red1's original post last night and felt that something was very wrong too - I agree with Otta and cuppa tea

I didn't know about 'time out' but I had heard of the naughty step. I wouldn't use either for my child, not even when she was being a terrible two. I know schools have 'thinking corners' in classrooms, but that's used in the context of a professional teacher-child relationship, and schools have safeguarding policies to protect against abuse.

Even the governemnt understands that a child's early years experience and what happens to it in the home is crucial to the adult that a child becomes. Have these parents (and the nanny-people who advocate naughty steps and time-out and controlled crying as child-control measures) thought about the longer-term implications for their children? My blood freezes to think that these poor children are suffering in this way and that possibly well-meaning parents are laying the foundations of adult dysfunction in their children by treating them in such a callous way.

[Otta]

new mother Wrote:

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> CT most people don't do that as it is a fire hazard....

Exactly what I thought...

... That and the fact it's just bloody wrong!!!

[2Loulou]

One of my neighbors used to do it, I thought it was tough, she never struck me as a bad mum or anything, she was loving and caring and her daughter seemed happy. I would say, whilst keeping an eye on child abuse, one has to understand that parenthood is not easy, and one has to have kids to understand how difficult it is to make a judgment.

[new mother]

Otta, yes I agree but I was trying to state only the indisputable aspects of it, rather than introducing my judgments on whether it is good parenting or not!

[apenn]

Cuppa Tea - locking kids in their rooms at night is dangerous for a whole host of reasons. Perhaps you could suggest to them to put a stairgate in the doorway instead?

[civilservant]

you can never predict the impact of non-nurturing treatment on the child.

Parents might think they're being loving and caring and acting in their child's interest etc but some time down the line, the child turns around and says 'you never understood what you were putting me through' and it comes as a shock to them. Some children are more resilient than others and will manage to survive whatever their parents throw at them (not speaking literally, of course) - it might even help them to take life's hard knocks. However, others will not, and where children are involved, its always better to be risk-averse

I think that naughty steps and time outs are just the current fashion in dealing with parental stress. People have got very pious about not smacking etc but their (grand)parents got the cane and cold baths as recommended ways of dealing with disobedient children. How long before people get all pious about naughty steps and contorlled crying?

anyway, back to topic - red1, I think you should go with your instincts and check in with the NSPCC

[Otta]

I blame channel 4 for ever putting that horrid Jo Frost woman on the telly.

Saw her talking to the parents of a child with learning disabilities like she was some sort of expert. How can they let this happen, she could be doing serious harm.

[zeban]

> Editd to add that I have friends I would consider

> good parents in most ways, who lock their kids in

> their bedroom at night so they can get a good

> nights sleep. My head does funny things when I

> think about this, as in every other way they are

> very loving! Desperate measure maybe.

That's awful, a complete disgrace. Maybe people need to think really carefully about whether they're emotionally able to bring up children. Yes it's hard but it's not about you anymore. I completely agree with civilservant:

you can never predict the impact of non-nurturing treatment on the child.

'Parents might think they're being loving and caring and acting in their child's interest etc but some time down the line, the child turns around and says 'you never understood what you were putting me through' and it comes as a shock to them. Some children are more resilient than others and will manage to survive whatever their parents throw at them (not speaking literally, of course) - it might even help them to take life's hard knocks. However, others will not, and where children are involved, its always better to be risk-averse

I think that naughty steps and time outs are just the current fashion in dealing with parental stress. People have got very pious about not smacking etc but their (grand)parents got the cane and cold baths as recommended ways of dealing with disobedient children. How long before people get all pious about naughty steps and contorlled crying?

anyway, back to topic - red1, I think you should go with your instincts and check in with the NSPCC'

[Moos]

Would still be interested to know what disciplinary techniques you use on your kids, zeban? And civilservant?

[dullified]

Sounds (to me) like the parents sling the kids out into the garden whenever they can?t cope anymore ? if the garden is a safe, protected environment and the kids have each other and its summertime I would not say it constitutes neglect or child abuse. It?s just a not very good form of attempting some sort of parental control, irritating to the neighbours and something you don?t particularly approve of. Also sounds like the kids know a little emotional blackmail (a couple of ?Daddy?s I love you? will gain them access into the house again.

I find locking children in bedrooms overnight a far more disturbing practice. Really quite shocked. Hate the thought of a child waking up distressed or ill at night and not being able to seek help.

[cuppa tea]

Moos Wrote:

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> Would still be interested to know what

> disciplinary techniques you use on your kids,

> zeban? And civilservant?

Sorry I know you're not addressing me Moos, but giving my penny's worth!; personally I think any 'disciplinary technique' will ultimately either stop working, or create a problem with parent/child relationship later on. The 'bad behaviour' is just a symptom of an underlying problem. You won't sort out the bad behaviour until you get to the root of it. I am not expert at this...still working on my own often shoddy parenting. I just think it's worth questioning the 'wisdom' of naughty steps, as I do think it's a fashion and I see it everywhere. It's extremely over-used to control very minor behaviour issues in young kids. I have found the punishment/reward way of doing things makes all my problems with my child worse. But then, perhaps he's a certain type of kid. His 'bad behaviour' stem from jealousy issues, social awkwardness, if the environment is stressful, unable to communicate what he needs to fast enough, feeling scared and insecure etc, and various other needs that aren't being met for one reason or another. Putting him on a naughty step is basically punishing him for being those things and will ultimately make him feel more insecure, and then make the behaviour more challenging. it's a vicious circle.

[helena handbasket]

I know what an emotionally unhealthy family home looks like, and it has nothing to do with naughty steps or controlled crying I can assure you.

[cuppa tea]

helena handbasket Wrote:

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> I know what an emotionally unhealthy family home

> looks like, and it has nothing to do with naughty

> steps or controlled crying I can assure you.

I wasn't saying that a family who uses naughty steps is emotionally unhealthy, I just don't find them to be particularly effective way of dealing with things and worry about the blanket use of them. It's a relatively new thing - My parents never used it, and my mum says that she doesn't know anyone who used it, so really we don't know the effect of these things.

[civilservant]

Moos, I don't have any disciplinary 'techniques'. My preferred reference book when my child was a baby was Dr Spock. maybe that tells you about me.

I nag, and if that doesn't work, I might shout at my daughter when she's doing something I don't like, but that's it, and I will NEVER swear at her.

She's never been sent to her room, put on a naughty step or been chucked out of the room, let alone the house. At worst, she might be threatened with being deprived of a treat.

When she was a baby and I was having a hard time - and I had mild PND, so I know a little about hard times with a baby - I handed her over to her dad or someone else and took a few minutes time out that way.

Edited to say - I entirely endorse cuppa tea's posts. We're all muddling through and like red1, sometimes instinct is the only guide.

dullified, a garden may be a nice safe environment, but the point is that the kids are being punished by being put out in it. Don't you think that these kids will ever after associate gardens with the notion of punishment?

[cuppa tea]

new mother Wrote:

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> CT most people don't do that as it is a fire

> hazard....

Yes, this was what worried me about it most. I don's see this friend much, but I have to mention it next time I do. It's one of those things that I didn't react to straight away because I was a shocked. Bit disappointed in myself! It's an example of how lines are blurred in that she is a very good loving parent in every other way....sometimes at the end of our tethers we do less than loving things to our children.

Another horror story: I remember a neighbour, who lived upstairs, asking me to babysit her baby by just bringing down the baby monitor as it still had frequency. I said that I couldn't do that and babysat in the usual way by sitting in her lounge. Had there been a fire I would not have known anything about it for some time being the flat below. I have know several people who do this!!

[zeban]

Edited to add it certainly isn't just the two of us that think the same Moos so stop making it personal to us. I think the real question is why are You taking this so personally???

[cuppa tea]

She's not is she? I took it Moos was just curious.

[mockney piers]

I can't see anything wrong with a naughty step, especially with young ones with limited linguistic skills.

you have to let kids feel that they've done something wrong, and sitting them on your knee saying 'well timmy you need to understand that there are some things we just don't do' is not going to achieve much when all they'll understand is 'mwa Timmy mwa mwa mwa mwa mwa mwa mwa'.

I guess the older they get the more you can move to reasoning from conditioning.

We all muddle through lets face it, but my dad had a (rare) bit of good advice on this.

"Whatever disciplinary measures you take, never withdraw love from them, that's the most damaging thing you can do."

Moos struck me as someone wanting constructive criticism rather than just criticism.

[zeban]

Really you don't think Moos is getting defensive? I do! But I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

[Pickle]

Zeban, in what way is Moos taking it personally? As far as I can see she's asking a genuine question of people (including yourself) who don't use the naughty step/time out methods and wants to know what you do instead. Perhaps you could just answer the question?

[Moos]

I wasn't having a go. I genuinely want to know how people teach their children how to behave well, and what they do in a consistent manner to achieve the right result. That is what I mean by disciplinary technique. If anyone here thinks that 'discipline' is a bad word then that says a lot to me about them.

I really do want to hear! Would much rather hear about what people find works than what they think doesn't. As I said before, I think my 4 yo has outgrown the naughty step and we're not going to use it any more. I think we will try to find consistent actions for particular naughtiness. I try not to shout at my son, as it is scary for him to see a parent out of control. (I don't always manage this). I prefer to tell him calmly that he was naughty and therefore x is going to happen, e.g. the thrown toy is put away for the day, or no pudding, or whatever. Still trying to get it right though.

[zeban]

Time out is a good idea to me but not locking them out or in anywhere, and letting them know what they've done wrong. I quite like Jo Frost-I never see her as being cruel or unfair. It doesn't work for my friends children though. 1 minute for their age seems fine definitely not 10 minutes. Sending them to their room yes.

Edited to say sorry Moos.

[Pickle]

Zeban, do you have children?

[Moos]

Oops, just caught zeban's post. Hopefully my last explains. cuppa tea and others, thanks for your responses - food for thought. Ctea, how old is your LO? My boy just 4. The baby is of course just a baby and not able to be either naughty or good!