Child Abuse???? advice please

[Otta]

None of this chuck em a jaffa cake

For the record, that was a joke!

[Otta]

Finally, I have worked in social services, and currently work in childrens services. I suspect a call like this wouldn't lead to much, but it would certainly not be ignored. Everything is noted when it comes to potential child protection issues.

No Local Authority wants to end up with a Baby P situation, so they will be very careful to make sure everything is done properly.

[new mother]

Agree with Otta. Something about it doesn't sit well with me. I have a gut reaction that few parents could resist, "mummy let me in". Totally illogical. There is just something about it that gets to me, in a way that "let me come downstairs from my room" doesn't.

[zeban]

Same here new mother

[toast]

Giving a child and parent 10 min time out is a way of taking things off the boil. It is a far cry from child abuse. Do you know these neighbours at all? Are they cold, uncaring, 'abusive'. If not why not cut them some slack.

[Belle]

To be clear, I'm not saying that short time out on a step/another room (or the garden method Pickle describes) is the same as locking children out for extended periods and ignoring their pleas. I do a couple of mins in another room or in his cot (with me outside the open door) as a cooling off thing, but obviously that's if he's being stroppy/tantrummy - wouldn't do it if he was upset, or just noisy. My point was that sometimes things get lost in translation, and whilst something cruel could be happening, it could also be that a (admittedly particularly harsh) form of time out is what is taking place. It's hard for any of us to say as we're not first hand observers. NSPCC sounds like a sensible idea as they'll be so experienced in this kind of situation.

Edited to add there was an interesting article a couple of years ago on this topic in the Guardian Family section. A couple doing sleep training with their 2 year old were reported to the police by their neighbours. In the end, backed by their son's nursery and sleep trainer, they were exonerated, but obviously it was an upsetting time. however, I remember being struck by the fact that desepite the upset it caused, the writer said she understood why her neighbours had done what they did, and that she felt as a general principle it was better to be safe than sorry. Quite noble of her, as I'm sure it must be incredibly upsetting to be falsely accused. I hope I'd be as understanding, but I agree with her in principle.

[Moos]

We use the naughty step but I'm thinking of phasing it out as it is having less and less of the right effect and makes our son sullen and angry rather than cooling him off. Maybe he's outgrowing it and we should use confiscating toys or withdrawal of privileges instead now he's no longer a toddler.

Would be interested to know what methods those of you use who are opposed to time-outs - newmother, zeban?

I wouldn't want to judge another parent until I'd seen what their situation was myself, but the OP sounds both sensible and bothered by what's going on. Hoping for everyone's sake that it's not as bad as it could be.

[helena handbasket]

My son has largely outgrown his all day toddler tantrums (THANK GOD), but his ability to create a reaction shockingly disproportionate to whatever he was protesting was legendary....... wrong snack, time to leave, sun cream....... whatever crime I committed at that moment. His tantrums were such high drama, screaming, crying,kicking, throwing himself on the ground. Pure madness and I just know that anyone within a mile of this scene thought I was putting cigarettes out on him or something. Live it to judge it, I say.

Anyway my point is that a young child can be screaming and crying because they didn't get the right cookie, and anybody who has survived the terrible twos knows this. There is no way to know why these children were doing this...... was it around dinner time? Most families have a "witching hour" where everyone seems to lose the plot. Has she just asked them for the 50th time to not play near the stove while she's cooking dinner? We have no idea what the story is. The OP didn't even witness it so the info is second or third party.

A time out can also be for mother to take a deep breath and regain her composure. My toddler days were 12-14 hours on my own, every day. Ten minutes to clear your head and reassess is hardly earth shattering.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[helena handbasket]

Moos I agree, it didn't really work for us either (although putting him in his room for five minutes so I could pull myself together was important for me).

We have found that the thing that works for us is removal of the happy stuff.

"If you keep that up your dinosaurs will be taken away"

"Please stay with mummy or we will go home"

Following through of course being the critical part.

[Otta]

Would be interested to know what methods those of you use who are opposed to time-outs - newmother,

I read from newmother's post that she is against putting them in the garden, not necessarily against sending them to their room. Hope I'm not misrepresenting you there NM.

[ryedalema]

We send our eldest (4) out into the garden for time out if she's been really bad. But not for anything like 10 minutes. If anything it's a real quick shock for her and she instantly repents and says sorry (and then of course we invite her in for cuddles and a chat about what just happened).

It doesn't happen often (and never in bad weather), but I don't see it as lazy parenting or putting our child in jeopardy - it's another discipline technique. I'd much rather do something like that than smack!!

[????'s Mrs]

Their is a difference between time out and locking your children in the garden. Time out is meant to be a minute per year of age, inside the home. Their ages are way to young to justify this amount of time and frankly the location of the "punishment" is bizarre. I feel real concern about it. If you are worried enough to post on here, you should pass the information onto the referral and asessment team in Peckham on 0207 525 1921 and allow them to assess whether it is an issue that needs to be investigated or not. If a social worker investigates it may be that they visit and decide their is nothing to be worried about, but this type of assessment does need to be undertaken by a trained profesional.

I do feel that their is a problem in society with everyone shutting their eyes and ears to abuse, hoping someone else will sort it out.... please pass the information on.

[apenn]

Agree with the last post. If the children are very young 10 minutes is much longer than the time out technique calls for. Additionally, if your instincts tell you that something is not quite right, as someone said in a previous post - better to be safet than sorry. Please take advantage of the contact info for help given in previous posts! -A

[red1]

I will judge for myself tomorrow, the lads have said the weekends is the worst, when the children (definitely under the age of 3, according to my fianc?) are thrown in the garden with no explanation from their parents, just a barrage of swear words and shut ups?? a lot.

I?m sure time-out is explained and when kids are being naughty not just noisy?

If I am AT ALL worried about the children I will report it to the appropriate authorities.

[ontheedge]

Reporting to social services doesn't always have negative consequences, maybe these are parents who are desperate for help and not coping, social services maybe able to offer advice and maybe much needed support to parents who maybe at the end of their tether and because of the "middle class label" not so overtly obvious as needing help. I wouldn't hesitate in contacting Social Services as these parents may be desperate for help but may not be hitting the radar as a family in need due to perceived ability to cope.

[red1]

ontheedge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Reporting to social services doesn't always have

> negative consequences, maybe these are parents who

> are desperate for help and not coping, social

> services maybe able to offer advice and maybe much

> needed support to parents who maybe at the end of

> their tether and because of the "middle class

> label" not so overtly obvious as needing help. I

> wouldn't hesitate in contacting Social Services as

> these parents may be desperate for help but may

> not be hitting the radar as a family in need due

> to perceived ability to cope.

totally agree kids are hard work and bad habits and getting in a rut is easy

[zeban]

Good for you red1.

This doesn't sound like a normal time out. LOCKING your children in the garden, I mean seriously, my Mum brought up 5 children on her own and never resorted to that.

The naughty step means picking them up and putting them back on the step if they get up. You're not locking them anywhere.

Swear words and shut ups is appalling and shocking. I'm baffled why people are taking this so personally. Oh sorry you're all middle class parents and all. I've seen quite a bit of cruelty from middle class families- and yes admittedly it is often more shocking to see than from say a really young Mum etc but it does go on a lot.

I completely agree with Quids Mrs and Apenn. Trust your gut. It's better to do something than ignore it.

[new mother]

Otta, no - you are quite right. I meant room was ok but garden somehow not. Weird perhaps.

I also need to change my name as it is misleading. Shall I become " old and constantly shattered mother"?

[helena handbasket]

The swearing was only added to the story three posts ago. Most people posted their thoughts without knowing that and I think it changes the tone of the situation. Which is why it originally sounded more like a time out.

I don't get the middle class bit? I'm not English so always baffled by it anyway, but can't for the life of me understand what it has to do with anything?

It all feels kind of odd for some reason.

[Otta]

I agree that the whole class thing is an irrelevent nonsense.

[ParentingWorkshop]

I do appreciate that sometimes parents feel the need to give a time out, but the principal behind this strategy is that it is one minute for every year of the child's life. So if the child is three years they should be in time out for three minutes only. Further, before the time out happens, according to this approach, parents would need to explain to the child why they are having a time out and straight after the time out has happened there needs to be a brief discussion also. This is an approach that is widely used and the purpose is essentially training/educating the child to behave in a better way. I personally feel there are more constructive approaches that are educative for the child, but realise that this approach is commonly used and can in times be effective.

From what you have said, however, it does not sound like what your neighbours are doing are actually doing the above - just sending the children out. Only you will know the situation accuratly, but I feel that if you think something is wrong it is important to at least do your bit - regular detentions to the back garden does not sound good. Of course, this does not mean that you need to go in guns ablazing and accuse your neighbours of abuse!! Do you have any kind of relationship/friendship with your neighbours?

[cuppa tea]

Difficult! I would call the NSPCC and ask for advice, after witnessing/hearing it yourself. I have never phoned them, but I would imagine you can do it all anonymously without actually saying who the people involved are. Swearing at a child is considered abuse isn't it? I found it upsetting to read, so something is not sitting right with me.

I am sure sometimes our neighbours, hearing us through their walls probably feel like calling social services - the noise is often incredible and things can get very stressful and I would consider myself someone who 'copes'.

That said, I don't like the 'naughty step' idea either. I think it's really open to abuse, which to some extent sounds like what these people are doing. How many people can stay calm and controlled enough at the moment of stress to explain it all in a reasonable way to the child? IMO it is also saying it's ok to leave your kids in isolation for x amount of time. It's the modern day smack, no more or less effective. I have used it very briefy, but never found it 'worked' for me or my child. It's weird that some woman on the telly suggests it during a highly edited tv programme and suddenly it becomes an accepted way of doing things. Questionable.

Editd to add that I have friends I would consider good parents in most ways, who lock their kids in their bedroom at night so they can get a good nights sleep. My head does funny things when I think about this, as in every other way they are very loving! Desperate measure maybe.

[vicki08]

then your friends should be reported also

[new mother]

CT most people don't do that as it is a fire hazard....

[Cora]

Contact NSPCC who deal with these things daily....skirting around with 'problems with the noise' could make things worse with the children being locked inside away from prying eyes. 'It gets worse at weekends' suggests this is ongoing, sustained punishment which is different from the occasional need to create space to let off steam.