junction underhill road/barry road

[Marlene]

the junction is very dangerous. What do we have to do to have a traffic light there? or perhaps a round about to cross it safely by car. It is so dangerous. when you think it safe to go across with your car, then some onelunatic whizzes around like madness. How can we make it safe for everybody?

[Vilmos]

At the very least we need a STOP sign putting up there, like the one at the north side of the junction of Goodrich Rd with Barry Rd.

I do remember the council running a survey some years back to ask people what modifications they would like to make traffic safer in this area. One of the 'improvements' that came out of the survey was the speed sign on Barry Rd just down from the junction with Ethrow St. Although several people highlighted the junction to which you refer, nothing seems to have been done in that vicinity.

[Pickle]

As a daily user of this junction, I don't think a stop sign would help at all. The problem is not cars failing to give way, it is due to the complete lack of visibility. The raised junction which has recently been installed does help a little, but on days where there are cars parked on Barry Rd right down to the junction it is near on impossible to see if there is anything coming down from the church unless you edge out onto Barry Road.

Traffic lights would help, but I don't think they'll ever be approved as apparently the accident stats aren't that bad for the junction (which I find surprising!).

[DulwichFox]

Traffic lights at The Kings Arms junction Peckham Rye has not reduced accidents.

In fact the long delays have frustrated drivers an caused them to speed up and jump the lights.

[Marlene]

Why people have to drive so fast in a residential area like that? What is all this rush about? just to be a millimeter in front of another person?

Traffic Lights would be ideal because it would allow at least people on the other side of Underhill road to cross without been in danger from cars coming through Barry Road.

Who can help to have these traffic lights installed?

[James Barber]

Hi Marlene,

traffic lgihts are installed by Transport for London and the London Mayor Boris Johnson is damant he wants less traffic lights not more. They typcially cost ?50k and a lot of disruption.

The collissino rate art this junction doesn't warrant traffic lights. We have worse crash locaiton in East Dulwich - namely Lordship Lane shopping area.

[KidKruger]

What Pickle said, I use that junction daily and visibility is reduced to sometimes 40ft due to vans or tall vehicles parked near junction, cars coming down Barry could still hit me at perfectly legal speeds.

I have to inch out and still get dirty looks from drivers for doing so, but there's no other way at that junction.

I used to use Sylvester Rd junction but that seems to get less respect from drivers as it's not a crossroads.

Shocking junction.

[srisky]

As said in above posts and on previous threads, visibility is still poor and people drive too fast along Barry Rd. I don't think there is any issue with the drivers on Underhill Rd not stopping.

Depsite the recent improvments, I still find myself almost playing 'chicken' just to turn left. If I need to turn right (i.e needing both lanes to be clear) then I avoid this junction altogether and end up using a rather circuitous route.

James, I would be interested to know if any of the council members use this junction during busy periods. If they did, then I'd be surprised if they themselves didn't find it a hair-raising experience. If they don't use it, then may I suggest they give it a try?

[trizza]

Am a regular user of this junction and have never had an issue turning left or right. It's not ideal , but it's a junction that crosses a busy main road, so perhaps not for the "faint hearted" (who may be happy with traffic lights at every junction!). Not all junctions in ED can be completely benign and free of any risk and there are many junctions in London that are a lot worse.. The crash stats do not seem to indicate it is really problematic, so people are clearly dealing with it. I just don't think there is really a big problem to solve and would suggest the scarce money for traffic improvements is spent elsewhere where it is needed.

[Marlene]

How can the cost of 50K to install traffic lights be justified? It is astronomical.

As someone else has said there are many vehicles parked closed to this junction on both sides of the road and visibility is difficult.. Obviously you need to take the necessary precautions, looking on both sides before moving, but precautions are never enough when a lunatic drives a bolid along Barry Road so fast as I have seen it last Saturday. Don't we pay road taxes to be kept safe as well? Where are speed cameras in Barry Road?

[Penguin68]

This argument seems to run and run. I have been driving across the junction for over 20 years now - I have never come across a situation when someone travelling along Underhill has shot-out carelessly into Barry - so all the focus on slowing down/ making more awkward the Underhill bits of the junction is fruitless.

There are just two causes of problems here - the visibility at the junction is poor, which forces drivers travelling towards Lordship Lane in particular to have to pull out slightly into Barry to check if the route is clear; and drivers coming along Barry from the Plough end in particular - where there is a clear run - pick-up speed, certainly to the allowed 30mph and often (it seems) somewhat above that. Because entry into Underhill, from both sides, has been artifically restricted (because everyone in traffic wants to blame Underhill drivers) and because there are often buses waiting to cross, this means that drivers crossing often get caught on Barry because they can't access Underhill, and an 'unexpected' car is now racing towards them from the Plough end.

Almost everything done to 'ease' the problem has in fact exacerbated it - the humps and the narrowing simply mean that cars attempting to cross Barry (or enter Underhill from Barry) are even more held up than if the way was clear.

Remedies are, put simply, to (a) improve visibility and (b) reduce Barry speeds. Remedies are not to increasingly seal-off Underhill making exiting and entering it from either side even more problematic.

And the building works on the corner are't exactly helping either, although hopefully they will onlly be temporary - but (I haven't seen the plans) once the buildings are occupied the parking/ cars entering and exiting Underhill at the junction will just make life worse.

[DJKillaQueen]

Statically it is far from being anything like a most problematic juction in the area. Yes there is reduced visability...so use the skills required to negotiate that type of juction. Being a poor driver is not an excuse for not being able to negotiate tricky junctions I'm afraid.

[Marlene]

It is not a quesiton of poor driving, it is also a question to reduce speed in Barry Road. Some people drive along as if it were a motorway!

[Penguin68]

DJKQ wrote:-

Being a poor driver is not an excuse for not being able to negotiate tricky junctions I'm afraid.

Once again demonstrating the evident fact that the 'blame' for problems at the junction is always placed on those crossing from Underhill - poor (i.e. excessive speed) driving on Barry is always relagated to 'not really a problem'. But it is. As is making the entry and exit from/ to Underhill even more problematic by road narrowing and raised tables.

Of course we all have to be careful driving, but that doesn't mean that the junction (a) isn't also a problem and (b) that that problem is entirely the responsibility of drivers moving into or out of Underhill to address exclusively. You can't, on your own, address a narrowed entry which forces you to hover in Barry if someone commits, after you have, to occupying or blocking the way into Underhill. That's particularly true for those turning off Barry into Underhill who may not be able to have full vision into the road until they turn, and then block one carriageway of Barry until Underhill clears.

This matters because (as it's status of bus route suggests) Underhill is a significant crossing point of Barry, rather than just being 'any old' residential road.

[trentk69]

I have to completely agree with Penguin on this one. The recent works have made this junction worse by restricting the flow of traffic.

The raised entry and exit seem to have done nothing, and I find this junction even harder to use now, especially coming out of Underhill and turning left onto Barry.

Admittedly, I have not seen any crashes since the work has been done, but it is just a matter of time.

There was a period earlier this year where there were crashes here on an almost weekly basis. The stats may say that this is not a problematic junction, but this is due to most of the crashes not being reported (lack of injury?), but this does not mean that the numerous crashes that I witnessed here did not happen.

I have to completely disagree with DJKQ - this is not an issue of being a poor driver - it is about visibility. You can be the best driver in the world, but if your visibilty is blocked by parked cars, you aint going to see the speeding driver hurtling down the road as you edge out to see if the coast is clear.

Marlene - dont even bother about making an assumption about the speed of the vehicles travelling down Barry Road, I have been through this argument before. "Apparently" we are unable to accurately judge how fast a car is travelling (30 mph) and "aparently" most cars travelling down this road travel at or under the speed limit....

[trizza]

I don't think anyone is claiming that the situation is ideal.

I'd agree with Penguin's points - it would be easier to navigate if the junction was widened and the speed humps removed. But you'll never get the council to do anything about these issues - the stock response to these issues seems just to be to take measures to slow or otherwise restrict traffic.

Add in a general restriction in funds and a lack of any hard evidence (the council won't do anything without a report) that this is a problem junction and I think you'll find that there is very little appetite to change things.

[Penguin68]

The point is that the council has now twice spent considerable funds restricting the exits from Underhill, with no evidence that the accidents have been caused by precipitate and careless exit from Underhill - i.e. the money they have already spent has all been about making the situation worse - clearly they aren't going either to admit their mistake or rectify it. But they have done nothing to remedy the actual problem. Of course it isn't the worst junction in the borough, nor are its traffic levels like the major thoroughfares (i.e. Lordship Lane) which naturally have a higher absolute accident rate. But the junction has always been a problem, and that problem has got no better.

[DJKillaQueen]

There have never been crashes every week at this junction. There are far more recorded accidents at many other junctions in the area and the council can only go by that data. You may think this junction statistically is a bad one...but the data just doesn't support that.

[trentk69]

The data doesnt support it, but I can tell you that it has happened. There was a time earlier this year / late last year when there were a spate of accidents at this junction over the space of a month of so, when they were averaging about one a week.

These were obviously not treated as reported accidents though, as they are clearly not in the council stats.

I live right on this junction, and I witnessed them myself.

[binary_star]

Seems The problem fir the council is actual vs reported crashes. Local councillor has acknowledged this before on the forum:

I had meant to mention it but yes research has shown that definite discrepancies between actual and officially reported collisions and crashes. But it is extremely hard to extrapolate the level of crashes factoring in the researched under reporting rates by set severity of crash types if literarily none have been reported!

From James Barber's post here: http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,674005,674537#msg-674537

And also

Both obvious solutions of putting lots of humps and/or raised platforms or tables along Barry Road - the latter are hugely expensive. Buses will be inconvenienced.

Which I take to mean what tfl wants tfl gets...?

[DJKillaQueen]

The council can apply to tfl for money for road improvements rolling over two year periods. The current round is seeking money for improvements to the junctions around Peckham Rye Park including the two junctions where East Dulwich Road crosses Peckham Rye. Those junctions have had many accidents and one fatality. Lordship Lane also has had fatal accidents. Plans are drawn up by the local authority and presented to tfl for approval. The plans are currently out for consultation with anyone who wants to comment. So no, tfl do not have the say on everything, they rely on the local planning office to come up with schemes that make sense and are supported by the data.

[binary_star]

Sorry, my point was not about funding rather that they didn't want traffic calming measures on Barry Rd specifically because it interferes with their bus route. The junctions have had money thrown at them already.

ETA: James' previous comment from yet another thread about this junction suggested to me that tfl's 'objections' might have some impact on any decisions made:

"Barry Road is a major bus route and TfL buses have and will object to more bumps and such traffic calming. "

[KidKruger]

"Being a poor driver is not an excuse for not being able to negotiate tricky junctions I'm afraid."

Pointlessly inflammatory and point-scoring comment.

As are some other comments on this thread.

My driving > Your driving, kinda BS.

Drivers edging out of that junction onto Barry Rd are no 'poorer' in ability than a blind person feeling his way down the street. If you can't see you CAN'T SEE. Der.

[Nicholas]

As a professional driving instructor, I use that junction on a daily basis. If you look back at previous threads, I have written extensively about the dangers of this junction. To be honest, it's no more dangerous than quite a few others in the area. Unfortunately bad driving and mainly speeding motorists along that stretch of Barry Road. In my opinion, I feel that raised junction makes it worse, particularly when emerging onto Barry Road because there is a steep gradiant which can cause you to roll onto the road. I know it's about money, and it's probably unaffordable in this financial climate but we need at least two high tech speed cameras along that stretch. Poor observation is one thing when emerging but if cars travelling along Barry Road were travelling at 30mph or less, you certainly wouldn't have serious accidents (speed is the main issue on this road). Traffic lights I don't think would help because you find cars often speed up to jump the lights and that could be fatal if someone does it from the other way. I don't know why they don't put a Stop sign. That would be a start at least. I know its difficult sometimes with poor visibility but I urge everyone to make sure that they look right left and right again and be really vigilant at all times.

[Marlene]

A friend of mine who lives close to this junction has told me that there have been accidents on a regular basis since he moved there in 03.

According to my friend, although the council had invested time, effort, and money at this junction, the only things they could have done to make it safer, it was to extend double yellow lines on both sides of Barry rd, up the hill towards the church, so clear visibility required by motorists could be achieved.

Why can't they do this? It could be another solution and cheaper than the traffic lights?