Riots in Tottenham......

[Andicam]

Huguenot, either you hadn't heard of the beanbag gun or you chose not to inform SSue40 of the alternative. Whether or not this alternative would have been effective, I can't say and neither can you with any certainty. I just remembered seeing it used on an american 'Cops with cameras' type show some years ago.

I know nothing of failure/success rates, I was merely responding to her question as an alternative to the snakes, hugs and night nurse posts. Also can I just say, your point about water bombs versus pistols was probably meant to be patronising, but in your own words "be realistic" it makes you come across as particularly stupid and weakens your argument.

Santerme Wrote:

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> The target needs to be immobilised quickly.

>

> You aim at centre mass where the major organs are

> located.

As someone with almost zero gun experience, I imagine the use of this powerful non lethal weapon aimed at centre mass could have immobilised the guy, (had trials been successful and its use sanctioned of course).

With that said, the article was posted for information only, and not as a way of making any judgements. Whether for or against the action taken by the police, many posters here are basing their comments on things they can't know.

As far as I am aware, all that is known for certain is the police shot and killed a man they claim/believed fired on them. A vigil/protest was held outside a police station which was later followed by rioting and in time the events will be investigated.

Finally, I would like to add, I have no time for drugs, dealers nor the people who keep the dealers in business. Likewise, I have no time or pity for unprofessional officers who try to hide behind the uniform or indeed, those that protect them.

[Santerme]

Well having carried a gun for over 23 years, I know which weapon I would prefer in a gun battle.

I have no experience of non lethal weapons such as the bean gun, so cannot comment.

[Fabricio the Guido]

Santerme Wrote:

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> It looks as though every disaffected youth is

> intent on making their feelings known about the

> general economic malaise.

>

> By increasing their collection of plasma TVs.

WELL bankers take their money out of a country or downgrade the USA's credit rating and the yoof, what have they got? How do they show their anger? And don't tell me about the vote,as Ill point to Florida or this Con-Dem coalition govt. Obama is speaking and pouring calm on troubled waters, as much as I love his oratory he'not talking about the anger out there.

[Spaceman]

Rye lane being looted at the moment!! Turn on BBC London 94.9

Scary!!

[pilgrimforever]

They were closing Rye Lane down as I left the station. Looks like trains are no longer stopping at Peckham Rye and all busses have been rerouted. Better stay away and safe!

[Andicam]

Santerme, I'm with you on that, in a gun battle I'd want a gun too. Problem is we don't really know the full story here. We know very little in fact.

Hope those close to the troubles stay safe.

[Loz]

Fabricio the Guido Wrote:

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> WELL bankers take their money out of a country or

> downgrade the USA's credit rating ...

I hate to spoil a good rant, but bankers don't actually do the credit ratings. 'Credit Rating Agencies' do. (And, no, credit agencies are not bankers. Unless you have a weird definition of 'banker')

> ... and the yoof, what have they got?

Admittedly not a lot, which is why looting and burning you own backyard seems a little counter productive. As my Dad would say, "S**tting in your own nest".

[StraferJack]

Credit agencies not exactly completely independent or without conflict of interest are they ?

[Fabricio the Guido]

Thanks Loz.. stand corrected. You aren't a banker are you or do you just feel like you have to defend them on a public forum. My point is about reacting to current events so feel free to comment about that, if you have something to say about it. And, I was only responding to someone else on here who was making glib comments about the basle 3 and capital adequacy requirements and whether that is connected to the looting on our streets, which is being done by mindless, automatons, who's only interest is in the creation of disorder and the acquisition of consumer goods.

[Jeremy]

Fabricio the Guido Wrote:

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> I was only responding to someone else on here

> who was making glib comments about the basle 3 and

> capital adequacy requirements and whether that is

> connected to the looting on our streets, which is

> being done by mindless, automatons, who's only

> interest is in the creation of disorder and the

> acquisition of consumer goods.

My comment which you are referring to was an obviously (or so I thought) sarcastic response to another poster who was claiming that the protests are politically motivated. As you say, they aren't. It's just kids - most of them too young to even have a job - who think it's fun to smash stuff up and steal beer from Tescos.

[Undisputedtruth]

I suspect the reasons behind the riots are multifaceted. For example cuts to EMA, increase in tuition fees, ethnic minorities being disproportionately affected by the cuts, lack of employment opportunities, poor handling over the recent shooting by police & IPPC. and many more.

I always felt social unrest was going to breakout at some point. Especially with the Tories in power. In my memory, I have never known such hatred of the government like the ones from the youths of today.

[BrandNewGuy]

Hatred certainly inflamed by comfortably off political enemies of the Tories - talk of the "savagery" and "inhumanity" of the cuts, and an arts administrator with a six-figure salary comparing arts cuts to the blitz. Stupid and woefully exaggerated talk.

Yes, the Tories are sh*te and I wish they weren't in power, but the level of political discourse in this country does no-one any favours.

[DinkyToy]

@Santerme and @Andican

I've got 25 years of weapons experience including air rifle, shotgun, pistol, light and heavy machine gun, rifle AND non-lethal.

I carried a non-lethal baton gun as well as my personal weapon for a total of 18 months, have fired one in anger and they can kill if you hit the target in the head or chest (or if you use a duracell battery instead of the plastic round - allegedly...).

If you hit them in the stomach from about 35 to 40 metres then they WILL sit on their arse and not think about anything else for a while.

[katie1997]

Oh for god's sake UDT, please, please, don't try to condone the mindless rioting and looting on that basis. There is no excuse for that kind of violence and wrecking of people's livelhoods. I agree with you that there are complex reasons for why we are where we are but this behaviour is deplorable. Ask anyone who has been at rock bottom in their lives. Did you steal, loot and set places on fire? How did that help?

I have lived in countries where people REALLY have nothing. Not much to eat let alone cr@ppy MacDonalds, KFC etc and wowee, HD TVs to watch. They are bloody grateful to have a half-used pencil to write with and value any form of education, the fact that someone will teach them how to read and write. I have far more respect - and more importantly, hope, for them. We have plenty of opportunity for education here, do we not? But how complacent we have become for those things we take for granted - democracy, clean drinking water, access to books. Yep, its cr@p having a lot less prospects but violence, rioting and looting are never the answer.

[Undisputedtruth]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> but the level of political discourse in

> this country does no-one any favours.

I found this bit interesting. Most people don't understand how government works and most discussions tend to be values orientated rather than getting to the root of the problem.

[Undisputedtruth]

@katie1997,

The rioting saddens me and my sympathies goes out to those affected by their actions.

[Santerme]

DinkyToy Wrote:

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> @Santerme and @Andican

>

> I've got 25 years of weapons experience including

> air rifle, shotgun, pistol, light and heavy

> machine gun, rifle AND non-lethal.

>

> I carried a non-lethal baton gun as well as my

> personal weapon for a total of 18 months, have

> fired one in anger and they can kill if you hit

> the target in the head or chest (or if you use a

> duracell battery instead of the plastic round -

> allegedly...).

>

> If you hit them in the stomach from about 35 to 40

> metres then they WILL sit on their arse and not

> think about anything else for a while.

Then we have similar experience I believe.

Bean bag guns just seem a little futile in a firefight.

[pk]

seems like the IPCC have found no evidence that Duggan fired shots at police

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

[*Bob*]

But was he wearing a heavy coat? Didn't he you vault the ticket barriers?

[Jeremy]

I don't think it matters whether he fired or not. If he even drew his weapon, the police would need to fire back straight away.

Anyone remember Harry Stanley? Shot dead by the police, carrying a table leg, which police mistook for a gun. And of course, Jean Charles de Menezes. Innocent men minding their own business, tragically, pointlessly killed. Duggan, on the other hand, was an armed criminal.

Edited to add - any loss of life is tragic, and any fatal police shooting should be thoroughly investigated. I just think we need to put this into context.

[*Bob*]

My issue is more that the police - time after time - seem completely incapable of understanding that disseminating incorrect information early on (born out of an understandable desire to put the best face on things asap) is completely counter-productive when, in the due course of time, the real facts start to emerge.

My natural instinct these days when hearing any police statement along these lines is to be immediately sceptical - and to a certain extent, they have themselves to blame.

If I'm sceptical, then what about people who have already grown-up with little confidence or regard for The Met?

[mockney piers]

Does anyone else say tottingcham in their head in an Ossie Ardiles stylee every time they read this thread title?

[RosieH]

Yes.

[Santerme]

Which Met police officer said Duggan fired first?

Or was that the media?

Genuine question!

[*Bob*]

"The initial reports, however, followed a depressingly familiar pattern. With the allegation that the police were fired at first came the implication that Duggan may somehow have been responsible for his own death. A police officer was also cast as a modern-day hero, catching a potentially fatal bullet in his radio during an exchange of fire.

The victim was predictably described in unflattering terms. In the earliest articles the Telegraph reported that on the night that Duggan was killed they were informed by "police sources" that the dead man was a "well-known gangster" who had been under surveillance by officers investigating gun crime in a preplanned operation in Tottenhan Hale ? the implication of "gangster" being that he was not worthy of public sympathy and may well have met a violent end in any event.

The Telegraph also reported that a spokesman for the IPCC said he understood that Duggan had been shot by police, adding that an officer had been shot and wounded. "We understand the officer was shot first before the male was shot." It appears that the IPCC relied on the police sources for their information."

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/met-communications-department-mark-duggan)

ie, he was wearing a thick coat in summer, and he jumped the barriers