Petition for the convicted rioters to lose benefits

[cmck83]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Apparently you can get 'paintballs' filled with

> capsaicin solution (pepper spray), which have

> previously been used in riot control.

Amazing. They need to get some of them.

[Santerme]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> Santerme Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > StraferJack Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I don't recall rubber bullets being all that

> > > succesful in Ireland

> >

> > Oh yes they were

>

> I guess that depends how you define success.

>

> Dispel rioters. Tick.

> Help community relations. Cross.

I seem to recall community relations were always a little tense to say the least.

[cmck83]

Kids hate the police in Dublin too, and complain about stop and searches. Kids will never be the police (or teachers) biggest fans, because they often get punished by them. It does not mean police and teachers should not be able to impose rules and discipline on kids.

[LadyDeliah]

Otta Wrote:

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> As for the Original Post / idea...

>

> Christ there are some @#$%& stupid people sharing

> oxygen with me in this country!

Like!

[cmck83]

Right, boyfriend is getting annoyed with me. He has told me to stop having e-beef with people on the Internet. Fair point I suppose, haha! SJ, I'll have to agree to disagree with you so!

Bye everyone!

[ianr]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> I'm not making excuses for anyone - a plague on every participant in the riots - but riots like this weeks don't happen all the time for a bunch

> of reasons. And one of those reasons is that a small band of commited people recognise that many kids are broken (for whatever reason)

> and try and grub around for funding to keep them busy. If it stops rioting, it's cheap at twice the price, even if it appears to be "soft"

I believe there are, or have been, such people in Peckham, with very small organisations, low public profile, probably little money, doing largely unheralded work. These are other than Camilla Batmanghelidjh's Kids Company. I don't remember any details. Does anyone?

[edresi10]

I wonder if teh Notting Hill Carnival can possibly go ahead this year?

[DaveR]

Going back to the original idea, I don't see why (for example) continued receipt of benefits for offenders couldn't be conditional on complying with community orders. While you're at it, why not establish a more direct link between the offending and the reparation - clear up after your own riots. How about offering people on community orders the possibility, once they've estalbished themselves as reliable, to do extra hours and be paid for it. Get local businesses involved in community orders so that the work that is done is more varied and more productive - again, if you prove yourself reliable at the start of your order you get the opportunity to complete it doing work that might actually lead somewhere. Businesses get free/cheap labour but, say, have to share the profits with the community - they get to keep some to provide an incentive.

I don't read the Daily Mail, or the Guardian - does it show?

[Loz]

edresi10 Wrote:

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> I wonder if teh Notting Hill Carnival can possibly

> go ahead this year?

I thought about that the other day. Given it is already the event that needs the most number of police in the UK, my bet is that the Met will cancel it.

[georgia]

Apparently it's under discussion, with a decision to be made next week

[richardbach]

i see that the plice hav started to dispense on the spot punishmet for loting

http://www.ariotinajamjar.com/acatalog/info_106.html

[StraferJack]

re: Santerme's point.

Any country with a sizeable army can deploy it's troops in another and when predictable trouble starts, claim success when they horse into the natives. That doesn't make it a "success"

[Santerme]

Or a failure either.

Depends on the mission briefing and required outcome.

[mockney piers]

I think strafer is suggesting that there is a gulf between immediate operational success and long term political strategy success, a point I'm sure you're well aware of despite the show of faux naivety ;)

[richardbach]

look at singpore they dont get roits and evryone obeys the law its harsh but fiar i here you cant even chew buble gum thats the kind of law that we nede here cos they knowe if they misbhave they will be shot and no vandlism either

[Fabricio the Guido]

Look at Korea, they don't get...hang on?

[StraferJack]

"Depends on the mission briefing and required outcome."

the mission briefing when the army went in to NI was to protect the catholic community from being attacked.

Mission fail

[Captain Scarlet]

edresi10 Wrote:

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> Lets all do what the Liberals want- lets throw

> money at the situation because it makes us all

> feel better. Not that the failed billions that

> have been spent in the past years is anything to

> go by. Or in fact shall we just give them all new

> pairs of trainers, clothes, plasma screen tvs and

> PS3's as they have been so hard done by by the

> state- its a load of crap.

> The majority of these looters arent interested in

> education or getting decent jobs or moving up in

> the world, they are just angry young kids who are

> only interested in doing as little work as

> possible and still getting paid to do it. This

> country is seriously screwed up.

> If you actually listen to them they dont know why

> they are doing it, they are just sheep who are

> angry, angry because here you are expected to work

> if you want the nicer things in life, the

> luxuries, but these people dont want to do that,

> its to hard, but its alot easier to hang around in

> gangs preying on the people that do work hard and

> just taking what you want. Hell it seems a lot

> easier than my life.

I agree with you on this.

[Twirly]

DaveR Wrote:

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> Going back to the original idea, I don't see why

> (for example) continued receipt of benefits for

> offenders couldn't be conditional on complying

> with community orders. While you're at it, why

> not establish a more direct link between the

> offending and the reparation - clear up after your

> own riots. How about offering people on community

> orders the possibility, once they've estalbished

> themselves as reliable, to do extra hours and be

> paid for it. Get local businesses involved in

> community orders so that the work that is done is

> more varied and more productive - again, if you

> prove yourself reliable at the start of your order

> you get the opportunity to complete it doing work

> that might actually lead somewhere. Businesses

> get free/cheap labour but, say, have to share the

> profits with the community - they get to keep some

> to provide an incentive.

>

> I don't read the Daily Mail, or the Guardian -

> does it show?

Possibly the most sensible posts on this thread so far.

Whilst I understand why people are angry and want the looters to be punished, this has to be done in a way that doesn't demean the rest of us. Removing benefits from people who are convicted is destructive as it will leave them homeless and hungry and so more likely to commit further crimes. This would not reflect well on the rest of us. By all means punish those responsible through loss of liberty (prison or community service), but know the difference between punishment and revenge.

[richardbach]

if tehy have no benefets then how wil they by their new nikes maybe they will have to go ans steel them lol

[StraferJack]

There are various schools of thought around appropriate punishment and causes for this weeks behaviour

In simplistic terms, they cover the spectrum of political thought from right to left and all points shared and in between

Whilst I may disagree with many of the opinions, I can see that the people I disagree with are, just like me, grasping towards some kind of sense and plan to avoid similar happening again

But people who not only sign this petition but pass it around and make a rare post on here to say what a good idea it is? I?m filing straight in the green-ink bin

[DJKillaQueen]

I just heard an interesting comment on the radio. Someone made the point that we had MPs stealing through expenses, we had recent relevations of police taking money from the press. Where is the vitriolic backlash against those people...the demands to seize their property etc.

Whilst absolutely the rioters should be punished, it should be proportionate to the crime and relative to the way other types of robbery and vandalism are punished.

[Loz]

To be fair, the MPs did have to pay their dodgy expenses back. More of them could have been sent to prison, though.

[cmck83]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> I just heard an interesting comment on the radio.

> Someone made the point that we had MPs stealing

> through expenses, we had recent relevations of

> police taking money from the press. Where is the

> vitriolic backlash against those people...the

> demands to seize their property etc.

>

> Whilst absolutely the rioters should be punished,

> it should be proportionate to the crime and

> relative to the way other types of robbery and

> vandalism are punished.

I agree with that, everyone is still extremely angry with the MPs and the banks. The thing is, 4 people didn't die violently as part of these scandals.

Also, if there isn't swift justice, kids will think they can continue to do what they like. I am dreading to see how much behaviour has plummeted in schools in September. If police can't control them, how will teachers?

[DJKillaQueen]

But not every looter is responsible for those four deaths and the man who was responsible for three of them has been arrested and will face a murder charge.

We also have laws for public order offences. Infact we have existing laws that cater for every aspect/ act of rioting and looting.

It's like the call to remove benefits or housing.....there are laws already in place that set out the legal conditions of that. It would require a change in law to enact and you can not change the law to punish rioters and looters in isolation, you would have to include any kind of public order offence, burglary, etc.