Youth Worker's Take on the riots

[mockney piers]

"It happened nearly 650 years ago in this city"

Interestingly I drove down Wat Tyler Road on the way to Southend Airport the other day.

Of course back in those days 'hanging's too good for 'em' was quite literal and generally followed by slicing them up and shoving their heads on a spike.

Mind you I can't see there being a road named after the nameless looter any time soon and Wat and co not only had legitimate grievances but a cogent set of demands.

[indiej25]

Well said, fantastic post.

For those who dont want to read it, dont, but dont then complain about it being too long.

In 1985 riots only 33% of those who were arrested were actual ethnic minorities, it's not about race, it's about poverty.

[Loz]

indiej25 Wrote:

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> In 1985 riots only 33% of those who were arrested

> were actual ethnic minorities, it's not about

> race, it's about poverty.

In the case of 2011, it was more about people who like nicking things, smashing up stuff and setting fire to things.

[indiej25]

In the 1980s people said the same, there was the same analysis, same conclusions, same media coverage.

You have to look beyond the mindless looting - in my opinion anyway.

[StraferJack]

agree with indie there... the current "crisis" is always the worst ever. The potential looming crisis is never as bad as before because "we have learned from before"

[spartanarmy]

Poverty and underprivilege has always resulted in violent unrest.

What about the 30's?

These idiots dont look that poor to me. They have free education, a roof over their heads, more money thrown at them than any youths in the history of our contry (EMA, free oyster cards being the start) and I guess they havnt walked 5 days for water unless all the shops are closed round their way (I wonder why)

My grandfather born just after the turn of the century in the same town as many of these idiots - Peckham to useless father into real poverty where he only went to school when his older brother was sick as there was only 1 pair of shoes to share amongst his brothers (you werent allowed at school without shoes). Despite him and his likes poverty and lack of priveledge the only riots they got involved in was against the black shirts at cable street. He joined the army underaged and there learnt to read and riot as well as serve in the war.

The thing these kids are deprived of most is discipline. If it doesnt come from home then it needs to come in the classroom or on the street from the police.

If you want to learn from the past maybe someone needs to consider that scarman and mcpherson has done more harm than good as following those reports we have gone too soft on these kids.

Please stop coming up with excuses for the behaviour. Its been going for years and we have let them get away with it. It was no suprise that they thought they could get away with it on such a big scale.

We have a great chance to reclaim the streets - please dont waste it by going soft again.

[StraferJack]

no-one is excusing anyone. But some people seem to think there may be reasons and if we knew the reasons we stand a chance of prevention. I think the reasons are many and complex and some of the reasons put forward by some people I don't agree with but it is examining why.. that's a good thing. But noone is letting them off the hook

Condemnation is fine and good but it doesn't get us anywhere

[richardbach]

i am alwys amzed at how mani peple use persnal andecdote as evidnce for agrument yet fial to comprhed taht povrty cane take many forms yuo wuodl not compar india povrty with uk povrty sowhy base yr agrument on histrocel legned an handd down foke lore it seams taht many postrs seam to veiw institutonal voilenece and enfoircd servitude in army or suchlike as bieng somhow charcahter biulding i am suprised at how this forom revels its tru colours when something like tihs hapens you know what they say bout hipies beibng scratched maybe tis aslo true for ed redisents lol

[mockney piers]

"We have a great chance to reclaim the streets - please dont waste it by going soft again"

There was a really good article posted up by someone or other on another riot thread about the failure of the state to monopolise violence in the face of new technology and the resultant democratisation of violence, well worth a read.

[Siduhe]

cuppatea and sfhyouthforum, I'm a bit confused - aren't you the same person? I understand that sfhyouthforum is The Sydenham and Forest Hill Youth Forum's - but the post is said to be the personal views of one employee - who looks to be the same person as cuppatea (unless there are two of you submitting a dissertation on the same issues - I looked it up online because I was interested).

No issue at all, if you are, indeed can understand why you would prefer to post on a personal login, but the "Brilliant Post OP" (from cuppatea at 12:04) looks a bit odd.

[cuppa tea]

No we're not the same person. Why does it look odd? Now i'm confused!! I was just expressing an opinion on the original post. Really don't see why you think we're the same person!

[Siduhe]

Apologies, I must be confused - I thought you were saying you had done a dissertation with a particular quote, whereas I think you were actually quoting the OP. Sorry for the confusion.

[spartanarmy]

i am alwys amzed at how mani peple use persnal andecdote as evidnce for agrument yet fial to comprhed taht povrty cane take many forms

you obviously failed to take notice of the quote at the top of my initial post from genwilliams

"Poverty and underprivilege has always resulted in violent unrest."

Where was the violent unrest in the 30s. Cable street was something very different. Poverty does not always result in violent unrest.

The anecdote is a good one because the idiots are not poor nor underpriveledged. They are not starving, they are not malnurished, they have access to excellent free healthcare and decent education, they have roofs over their heads as well as the odd bit of bling and a blackberry mobile phone.

The only poverty they suffer is poor parenting and poor discipline. You aint going to solve the bad parenting so the discipline has to come from somewhere else. For years the the message the idiots have been dealt is that they are the victims, they are downtroden and they can wonder the streets and get away with murder. Because it has built up for such a long time it needs to be quashed dramatically so that at the very least the new breed will be brought up with a different message.

[Tarot]

Can someone define poverty and deprivation.

I dont think those rioters were suffering from either,and they werent all black either,so its not all about race is it.

The asians work very hard and respect their families and enviorments.

Sheep following thieves is what I saw/

[The Minkey]

From what I saw when I was dumped off the 343 into the rioting down in Peckham on Monday evening, there were all sorts of people involved, some seriously scary youngsters, other youngsters along for the ride, older elements embarked on more organised actions (like the hooded and scarved guys I saw piling out of vans at the bottom of Jerningham Rd, opposite Sainsburys/Comet).

It's very tempting to think the way forward is to hurt the rioters where it hurts, bang them up/stop their benefits etc, but while it may make us feel something is being done, it's a quick and dirty fix. What are we going to do, build more and more prisons, more and more half-way houses no one wants to live near?

I appreciate what the OP has to say about the situation and I would like to see the Govt take on board what people who works with the most disturbed and dangerous kids have to say, like Camilla Batmanghelidjh, otherwise I believe we'll be facing more serious problems here in the UK if we continue to fail to address the sort of inner-city issues she highlights so well in this piece: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00jpw1j

"Until we show some curiosity as to why this is happening, we are not going to come up with solutions".

[Loz]

Tarot Wrote:

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> Can someone define poverty and deprivation.

The important phrase to use, Tarot, is "relative poverty". This is a useful phrase, because it doesn't actually mean 'poverty', it just means 'haven't got as much as people who live around you'. It is of a similar made-up etymology as "mentally addictive" - people jumping onto the power of a word that doesn't apply to a given situation, by extending it to a meaningless phrase.

Take this case: this girl was looting stuff because lives in 'relative poverty'. I mean, some of her friends drive Porsches - how is a girl to keep up?

[randombloke]

OP. That's a well-constructed and erudite argument. I don't entirely agree with everything that you say but well done for saying it.

It's been said before in this thread but all of this seems to me to boil down to a lack of discipline and a lack of good role models.

Tragically, all the people I saw hoodied up on Monday on Peckham Rye were male Afro-Caribbean youths, and it was the same in Stratford where a Pakistani collegue commented exactly the same thing. Of course in other areas it could well have been WASPS or any other colour, ethnicity or nationality. Is that a function of the predominant ethnicity of Peckham, or a function of the disaffectation of the young men of that postcode? There are people better qualified to comment on that than I.

It is too easy to shout "bring in the Army", "bring back National Service", "bring back lynching".

What we need is to bring back individual responsibility and accountability. We need kids to recognise the wisdom of their elders and to learn self-control.

And, as difficult as it is to say we need structure and discipline. I went to a progressive junior school back in the early 70s. I learned the square root of F*ck all there and without my mother's loving care and tutoring probably wouldn't have achieved a great deal. She taught me to read, to write, to do maths and to express myself. My dad was away working but he too showed interest whenever he was at home. They were great role-models. My junior school teachers were wetter than an October Monday afternoon in Manchester. Useless and dished out no discipline whatsoever. I had a rude shock going to Grammar School. I learned to stand up and show respect when a mortar boarded teacher came in. Would it work now? I doubt it.

I learned discipline in the Army. But I learned right and wrong from both my parents. I hope I have instilled the same in my son.

Kids are entitled to make mistakes, I did. My son did. Some of the "rioters" did.

I'm lazy, I procrastinate, I don't always do what I should but I don't go out nicking things when I could easily have joined in as I rode through Peckham on Monday night on a motorbike, helmet on: difficult to see my face, but I didn't because I know right from wrong.

But there is now a lawless hardcore that have no positive role-models. They fear no consequences. They have no self-control and no self-discipline and when discipline is imposed upon them they fight back viciously. For those few perhaps there is no soft response.

A while ago I sat incandescent with anger at a no more than 12 year old child who refused to get off a 63 bus when instructed to do so by the driver because his bus pass wasn't valid. An entire bus full of adults were inconvenienced by this idiot because "I have an exam to go to". Reasoning didn't work, cajoling didn't work. The driver refusing to move the bus causing about 60 people to be late for work didn't work.

To my shame it ended up with me losing my temper and screaming at him, and still he didn't move. He knew we were all impotent as he was a minor and had I done what I wanted to and physically picked him up and thrown him off I'd have been prosecuted.

THAT's where we are wrong when a 12 year old can dumbly sit there and have no compunction in blanking a whole bus full of adults. If I were 6ft5,20 stone shaven headed Outlaw gang-member biker (and I know a couple) he'd have moved. But I'm just a 5ft7, 11 stone middle aged bloke in a suit and I feared the legal consequences of taking positive physical action. 30 years ago as a 19 year old in the Army I'd have kicked his arse off the bus irrespective of the consequences. Whether that is a function of age and experience, or the changes in the law and fear of the legal repercussions I don't know. But when law-abiding citizens such as the vast majority are controlled by the lawless minority it is time for something radical to change.

I don't know what the answer is but I am sure the original poster is on to something with the argument that the answer is with the silent majority, not the imbeciles for whom "t'ieving trainers from footlocker" makes them feel like a big man.

Perhaps we needed 24 blokes with pixelated faces from a small Army unit based in Hereford putting their pints down, popping out of the pub onto the street and requesting politely that the rioters put down their petrol bombs and going home. Oh sorry, they are all in Afghanistan. But they have discipline, self-esteem and are accountable. I'm also damned sure they would have stopped all the rioting in about 2 minutes, armed or not.

So, a hard fist in a velvet glove seems to be a phrase I heard somewhere once. Punish the hardcore and show them no mercy but show lightness of touch with the wayward ones who acted out of character. And, somehow re-connect the disaffected "yoot" with their elders and hope they learn from them.

Yoda, where are you when we need you?

[citizenED]

Great post OP. Nice to hear such a thoughtful response.

[nashoi]

The youth can't all be living in despair of their futures. I heard tell of one poor ingenue who burst into the Hermit's Cave on Monday afternoon and demanded everybody's phones.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that anybody who thinks

Weekday afternoon + Hermit's Cave = Cornucopia of apple's latest products

is blessed with pathalogical optimism. Unfortunately for him, on this occasion he left empty-handed.

[mrcee]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025068/Revealed-middle-class-rioters-The-aspiring-musician-organic-chef-millionaires-daughter-dock-accused-looting.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[StraferJack]

nashoi - in a world gone mad, your post made me chuckle

still doing it now...

[Huguenot]

nashoi gave me a belly laugh! Cheers to that!

Did the Sun on monday really suggest that Duggan had been shot twice in the face?

[mockney piers]

best post on the looting so far there nashoi!!

[Jeremy]

nashoi Wrote:

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> I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that

> anybody who thinks

>

> Weekday afternoon + Hermit's Cave = Cornucopia of

> apple's latest products

>

> is blessed with pathalogical optimism.

I disagree, there are always plenty of apple products in there - they usually seem to have 10+ ciders on draught alone.

[sfhyouthforum]

Firstly, thanks for all your replies and posts. I think that it can safely be said EDF is alive with some of the capital's smartest brains. I've hopped, skipped and jumped my post over here, after it got several thousand hits in http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6558 where debate has, at times, been hairy.

Yes I am an employee of the forum - its only employee (for now) and development officer. Though there are many volunteers and those on the management committee (we are a registered charity). The charity was dormant for a while with ?7k in the bank. Some community members wanted to hand it over and held an Extraordinary General Meeting. I was working at a nearby youth project and saw this as the perfect opportunity to put some of my LSE social policy masters to the test. If anyone is interested in more info, I'd be happy to send you our previous annual report (10 pages, lots of pictures) [email protected]. We've just launched a new website to map opportunities for yp so if any of you work with them or have friends who run workshops, add your info on http://sfhyouthforum.org.uk/. Members include police, schools, youth clubs, health workers, LGBT groups, faith groups, young carers and homeless organisations.

These riots have highlighted so many issues and points to consider, but I think the over-arching thing for me is let's listen to those who DIDN'T loot. Those who chose not to get involved. For those that did, something somewhere went wrong. Someone has let them down. Then they let themselves down. And I feel it is up to the rest of us to get stuck in. You don't have to mentor the older ones, if they scare you or even anger you to the point you may clobber them round the head! So perhaps get into the primary schools when they're 4, 5 or 6 years old and can be taught these values. Reading, writing, piano lessons, sports...they'll all grow up one day.

It doesn't have to be too onerous. Just one hour a week will make a huge difference. You can be honest to kids. Tell them it's one hour, every week, and that's it. They'll understand. Just be there consistently. Don't let them down or make promises you can't keep. Like a relative does when they meet up to go to the park or seaside once a month, you'll be held in esteem. Then when these things take place, you call and say 'promise me you won't be part of it?' or 'this will end our friendship', they will listen. You could say 'right! We're meeting up to watch a film with my kids or go bowling' so in times of emergency you can keep an eye on them. The bond and trust will mean more to them than the PS3 they could loot. This is the stuff I am on about.

Forgive me for cut'n'pasting but as I said to one member regarding tougher action on the looters: 'Have you ever thought about how hard it is for me to be able to change your views [on them]? I know my post won't miraculously change your stubborn take on it. So I suggest you apply the same mindset to these [']yobs[']. There's no amount of beating, hatred, violence that will enable them to wake up the next day and train to be an employee. Or I could be wrong. You tell me. If I come over and whack you with the naughty stick will you promise to be a mentor?' (I ws being cheeky - and told them so)

It's so understandable to be angry, but not helpful. Anyway, I'm clearly preaching to the converted. Thanks for having me. Love thy neighbour and all that Jazz!