Grove bridge in The Guardian

[Maurice]

Anyone catch the article in The Guardian today by Peter Preston. He lives 'round here you know. Not sure if it is online.

[downsouth]

Voila: http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,,2209473,00.html

[Maurice]

Oh marvelous. Terriby unattractive bloke isn't he?

I fully expected our dear Dale to be all over this. Has he taken holiday?

[Nero]

It's well written and he has a point. All in all, a good article, I'd say, whether on not I agree with the content. Nero

[Alan Dale]

Sorry. Dropped the ball a bit recently. Managed a response on Camberwell online.

http://www.camberwellonline.co.uk/2007/11/caravaggio-the-hermits/#comment-50919

I can't see how this can possibly be national news.

[Maurice]

Oh I think the principle is universal. Camberwell is a tale of many cities, not a joined up 'community'. Why do you think community groups here languish in inertia land?

[Alan Dale]

I just think that this is a very lazy way to write an article about the breakdown of community.

Even if this was neat example of what he was trying to show I think he should have come up with more case studies to explore his theory. There are ineffectual community meetings every day up and down the country. I am sure there are also succesful ones and examples of seemingly disparate communities coming together to achieve great things.

Or maybe not. We are certainly none the wiser from this article.

[Maurice]

True. But it was an opinion piece, not an exhaustive, objective study of local governments and community conhesion. I thought it raised interesting points. And he's in the middle of it so he spoke from his daily experience, like opinion writers do.

He's spot on about Camberwell and Southwark. Spot on.

[Alan Dale]

I find it staggering how London focused the national media is. It's only when you live here that you realise.

As for the sentiment of the article then I think this response in the comments section sums it up.

woddison

November 13, 2007 11:21 AM

I find Peter Preston's comments rather sad. I live at the top of Camberwell Grove in Grove Park which has been very affected by the sudden and so-called `temporary' closure of the bridge. Grove Park has become a target for rat-runners and the number of garden fences knocked down by speeding drivers has risen dramatically.

Yes, it would be good to see the bridge open once more; yes the discrepancy between those in the Grove enjoying their quiet imposed cul-de-sac and the Peckham tendency is a classic one in class terms if you want to see it like that. Preston obviously wants to put a cynical slant on it and slap down any community spirit that might be going. I find that sad. There's much to be said for community spirit, however faulty it might be at this juncture in the early 21st century. But I'd rather see attempts at its continuation than Preston's throwing his hands up in the air and denigrating it. What would he put in its place? I enjoyed the sense of Covent Garden community when I lived there (admittedly dominated by middle-class activists in those days, in the '70s); but there is plenty around Camberwell, Peckham and East Dulwich that now excites me about local democracy trying to survive. Don't knock it, Peter. Get out a bit more. And point the finger where it should be pointed; not at locals but Network Rail and the council who are together the real culprits. Why don't you turn your fire on them with a bit more venom. I'd take your article a good deal more seriously if you did.

Spot on. Absolutely spot on.

[Maurice]

I think he did take aim at The Council and Network Rail. He showed them to be disorganised, bound up in red tape, out of touch, poorly equiped intellectually, etc.

[Alan Dale]

I thought that message got lost in his community bashing.

"Mrs T, long ago, didn't actually say "there is no such thing as community". But if she had, I'd have known what she meant. Community, whether caustic or politely consensual, has an odd knack of seeming a bridge too far."

That was his overarching conclusion.

[Maurice]

There's truth in it Alan. If it would aid wider Camberwell for your little Village to re-open to full traffic, I suspect your street would vote against the 'community'.

[Alan Dale]

Damn right.

But you seem to be confusing concensus with community.

When the two coincide then a lot can be achieved but just because some issues divide communities doesn't mean we should give up on the idea of community.

[Maurice]

I do agree to an extent. But when there is little concenus, aren't you simply re-drawing and redefining community to suit?

[Alan Dale]

I don't understand the question.

[Maurice]

When 'community spirit' is victorious, it's because there is concensus. When there is not, we fragment and shove spirit out the door. Unless of course we redefine 'community spirit' either in concept or geographically to suit our needs.

[Keef]

I agree with Alan's earlier point about this article. He's using one evening's events to draw conclusions about an entire area, and the state of "community" in South London.

Now I think the term "community" is used far too much, and I laugh my head off when people try to tell me about East Dulwich's lovely little village community feel, because it's a load of bo!!ocks.

However, things like the street party that was held on Upland Road a while back, this very forum and the projects/groups that have sprung from it suggest to me that "Community" does exist. Even a group of 20 people from 10 houses on the same street getting together and doing something is a nice thing in my opinion. In some areas you're lucky to know the people that live in the flat above you, let alone your next door neighbours.

[Jah Lush]

Alan Dale Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I find it staggering how London focused the

> national media is. It's only when you live here

> that you realise.

Alan, you get a southern edition, a northern edition, Scottish and Irish editions of the majority of the national newspapers.

[Alan Dale]

removed

[downsouth]

The Guardian is a mancunian paper.

[Alan Dale]

As if. Not any more.

That might be where they keep the call centre for selling advertising space but it is as London based and biased as the rest of them these days.

[downsouth]

You cynic you. Until 1959 it was till called th Manchester Guardian and in the US it is still known as that. It cares far more about regionalism than any of the other parties due in part to its founding. We're off topic now.