Lady on Crystal Palace Road whose Staffie ran out of the house and attacked our 5 month old puppy

[Curmudgeon]

I'm sorry I, and my children, were in such shock at the time that I don't think I acknowledged you, or your apologies, but I would like to speak to you about your dog. Please if you see this could you PM me. We drove down Crystal Palace Road today but couldn't remember which house it was.

Our puppy is fine thankfully (and thanks to the barman and man with the miniature Schanuzer in The Actress for your help too)

[new mother]

Omg, how horrible horrible horrible. Poor you and children to witness it all, not to mention the terrified puppy.

[Marie81]

Hi Curmudgeon,

I was just wondering what it was you would say to the owner of the dog who attacked your puppy! Only asking as I was in a similar situation recently so wondering what can be said after the incident has happened.

Glad your dog is ok and not hurt.

[the-e-dealer]

"Your Dog should be Put Down" ?

[first mate]

It would be useful to know the reproductive status of the attacking dog and if the pup attacked is a boy or girl?

A 5-6 month male pup will have experienced a hormone surge which gives it 6-7 times the amount of circulating testosterone. This can be like a red rag to many intact adult males and they may 'target' the youngster. To us a 5 month old is a pup, to an adult dog, depending on its hormonal status, it will no longer enjoy so called puppy license.

If the staffie is an intact adult male and the pup is a boy, this might be one explanation for a seemingly out of the blue attack.

I am not excusing but what can look like a horrific attack may be something a bit different.

Was the pup injured and did it have any marks on it?

Other equally possible explanations are that the staffie was treating the pup as prey. Staffs are notorious for not being that great with other dogs and if it has not been properly socialized this may be another reason.

It is not clear if both the pup and Staff were on a lead? If walking on the pavement were you both on the same side? Or did the staff run out from a house, or was it being walked off lead?

How old is the staff, is it neutered? Many of these dogs are in rescue and extremely well meaning people take them on and don't quite realise what they can be like with other dogs.

Either way,the owner of this staffie now knows that their dog might repeat this behaviour with other dogs/pups. I would suggest the owner is asked to ensure that their dog is always kept on a lead and away from other dogs until it has attended training classes and can be shown to be safe around other dogs, having been properly assessed by an expert.

The Dogs Act of 1871 might allow grounds for civil action if it can be shown that the dog is a repeat offender. See the website for Trevor Cooper who is an expert on dog law.

If your pup begins to show fear around other dogs as a result of the experience you might suggest that owner of staffie funds some behavioral work with the pup.

Could you give a description of the Staff involved as I recall another EDF poster who had her dog attacked by a staff that ran out of a house- I wonder if it was the same dog?

[Frankito]

I don't care what anyone says.. I have yet to meet a Staffie that wasn't unpredictable.. My dog was bit by one in Peckham Rye when she was a puppy and again, recently in Brenchley some seeimingly harmless Staffie launched an unprovoked attack on mine...

Apologies to the small minority of responsible Staffie owners out there who get bad press from the rest...

[Marie81]

To the-e-dealer what a ridiculous thing to say, as the owner said they?re puppy was not hurt and also you do not know the full story so personally I think that is a rather ignorant thing to say. For all you know the owner whose dog attacked the puppy may be aware her dog has behavioral issues and be working with a behaviorist and have the dog muzzled and on a lead in the park or wherever they walk the dog. Perhaps the dog escaped out of the house accidently, would you still stand by your comment if this was the case?

first mate: great response and really informative thank you.

Hi Frankito, I can reassure you that there are many well behaved Staffies out there who do not have an unpredictable nature! I walked many today whilst volunteer dog walking at a rescue and while yes a couple of them have issues with dog on dog aggression their behaviour definitely is not unpredictable. Also the dog on dog aggression there mainly comes from the other breeds but then again kennels are a very stressful environment for any dog. Many of the Staffies I come across are lovely, loyal dogs who are very receptive to training and will do anything to please. I am sorry you have had a couple of bad experiences, I do think that this is probably more due to the fact that there are a large amount of Staffies in London, more than other breeds and unfortunately for some they tend to end up in the wrong hands!

[the-e-dealer]

Please Note the Question Mark!

[Marie81]

I did note the question mark, thanks.

[tallulah71]

Marie81 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To the-e-dealer what a ridiculous thing to say, as

> the owner said they?re puppy was not hurt and also

> you do not know the full story so personally I

> think that is a rather ignorant thing to say. For

> all you know the owner whose dog attacked the

> puppy may be aware her dog has behavioral issues

> and be working with a behaviorist and have the dog

> muzzled and on a lead in the park or wherever they

> walk the dog. Perhaps the dog escaped out of the

> house accidently, would you still stand by your

> comment if this was the case?

>

> first mate: great response and really informative

> thank you.

>

> Hi Frankito, I can reassure you that there are

> many well behaved Staffies out there who do not

> have an unpredictable nature! I walked many today

> whilst volunteer dog walking at a rescue and while

> yes a couple of them have issues with dog on dog

> aggression their behaviour definitely is not

> unpredictable. Also the dog on dog aggression

> there mainly comes from the other breeds but then

> again kennels are a very stressful environment for

> any dog. Many of the Staffies I come across are

> lovely, loyal dogs who are very receptive to

> training and will do anything to please. I am

> sorry you have had a couple of bad experiences, I

> do think that this is probably more due to the

> fact that there are a large amount of Staffies in

> London, more than other breeds and unfortunately

> for some they tend to end up in the wrong hands!

Very well said - although it's very distressing to be on the receiving end of an attack from any type of dog, all the staffies I know are brilliant especially with children and there's far too much staffie-bashing on here. I know more labradors with more aggression.

[Jeremy]

There's absolutely no way you can convince me that people get staffies because they're good with children. If you were going to get a dog for that reason, you wouldn't get one which was bred for an exaggerated fighting instinct and a powerful bite. It just doesn't add up.

I can understand taking in a rescue dog out of compassion, but I can't think of any other legitimate reason for owning one.

[first mate]

I think historically people got staffies because, correctly bred, they are exceedingly reliable with children. However, many of the bull breed types we see on the streets today are crossbreeds and so we cannot know that the true staffie temperament has been passed on to them.

Unfortunately, since dogs that have the bullbreed look have become status dogs it seems the case that all sorts of breeds are being mixed up- some have mastiff, others different terriers or even sight hound. So, what we are dealing with is to some degree a lottery in terms of characteristics.

I have to agree Jeremy that formerly staffies were bred for fighting. Ironically, the need to pull a fighting dog off another fighting dog without the owner getting bitten, is what made them so reliable with people, strange but true.

I would say that true staffs can be OTT in their play which can lead to problems with other dogs. They have been bred to look physically assertive with a very upright carriage when meeting other dogs- this can lead to problems. They are not always so great in giving off the right body language or in reading the appeasements signals of other dogs. All of these issues are surmountable with the right training and socialization through puppyhood. On the plus side, they are very bright and very trainable,much more so than many other terrier breeds. This is why you'll so often see them being walked off lead- though I do not approve. I can think of few other terrier breeds that you could do this with so often. They are also immensely forgiving of human abuse- I cannot imagine a Dobermann or Akita taking the kind of punishment that these dogs will soak up.

Bottom line is each dog has to be taken on its own merits. Some dogs have a very high prey drive which can find an outlet with other dogs. Intact males may, not always, be more likely to fight with other intact males. Dogs that have themselves been attacked or scared by another dog can develop fear aggression to other dogs. Dogs that have been abused/scared by people can develop fear aggression to people. A dog that shows aggression to another dog is likely to be fine to people and vice versa- aggression is rarely an all encompassing reaction to everything in life.

[siousxiesue]

The Staffordshire Bull Terrier was informally known as the 'Nanny' dog for a long time, simply because they are so good with children/family life

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There's absolutely no way you can convince me that

> people get staffies because they're good with

> children. If you were going to get a dog for that

> reason, you wouldn't get one which was bred for an

> exaggerated fighting instinct and a powerful bite.

> It just doesn't add up.

>

> I can understand taking in a rescue dog out of

> compassion, but I can't think of any other

> legitimate reason for owning one.

[the-e-dealer]

So many Views Which is Right? Only one way to find out ! FIGHT!

[Mscrawthew]

A new campaign by Battersea because they know what they are talking about :))

Kennel Club approved.

"Extremely reliable, highly intelligent and affectionate,

especially with children."

They're not our words to describe the Staffordshire Bull Terrier,

but the Kennel Club's. Surprised? With so many misconceptions about the breed,

you may well be. Yet while they may be perceived as rough and tough, in reality

Staffordshire Bull Terriers are anything but. In fact, due to their gentle behaviour and affinity with children they are often referred to as the 'nanny dog'.

http://www.battersea.org.uk/dogs/staffies.html

[littlemisssmith]

As a staffie owner yet again it frustrates me that people who have never owned one can give such negative press about them!!

Own one, train it, learn about the breed then comment!!!

Staffies have such a negative press nowadays as they have become "weapons" in the young gang culture.

Beforehand staffies were known as one of the better breeds to have around chilrden, if you have a staffie from young and install time and effort into your dog then there is no reason that it should act in a aggressive manner towards dogs or children.

Rescue dogs are a different matter especially if they have been abused and rehomed on more than one occasion. It is also very hard to undo anything they have learnt up to the age of about 4.

I wish people would take some time to learn about this breed before they make such negative comments!!

Lets not sterotype all owners of staffies as ex-cons with tattoos and skin heads!!!

[Otta]

To the-e-dealer what a ridiculous thing to say, as the owner said they?re puppy was not hurt and also you do not know the full story so personally I think that is a rather ignorant thing to say. For all you know the owner whose dog attacked the puppy may be aware her dog has behavioral issues and be working with a behaviorist and have the dog muzzled and on a lead in the park or wherever they walk the dog. Perhaps the dog escaped out of the house accidently, would you still stand by your comment if this was the case?

Being as you are completely hypothesising, allow me to try one. If the puppy had been a child, and the staffie escaped accidently, and attacked it, would it matter if the child was unhurt, or should the staf be destroyed because basically it has shown that it is capable of attacking a child?

[the-e-dealer]

Dog owners understandably baulk at the idea of their dog being put down due to a misunderstanding. When I was a child the Neighbours kid raised her arm and our dog thought she was attacking me so he bit her arm. She needed stitches. Getting the dog in trouble didn't even get mentioned. They knew the dog often spent time with him and that he was very friendly and loving and could see and understand the mistake. I suspect 'Jet' would have been put down if this had happened today. In those days he continued to escort the dustcart (The bin men saved him old shoes) and Milkman on their rounds. And meet me from school. I don't know which way is right.

He never hurt anyone after that one incident and was found run over a few years later in the middle of the night by the Milkman who drove him to the vet but he wasn't saved.

[first mate]

The problem is many of the dogs we see are not pure bred staffies, they are cross breeds- so assertions about temperament cannot be made on the basis of breed.

Nonetheless, the majority of dogs if well raised are fine. Dogs have been selectively bred over eons to co-exist with man.

Obviously if the dog in question had attacked and bitten a child it would probably now be put down, but that is confusing the issue somewhat. The circumstances of what happened when this puppy got a fright are not clear.

I do think that we have incredibly high and possibly unrealistic expectations of dog behaviour these days.

[Mscrawthew]

The problem is who is at the other end of the lead. You cannot accuse ALL dogs of one specific breed or cross breed of being one specific type of character or predetermined to attack or bite. Sadly some people will not see beyond their own prejudice or take time to actually find out if the media portrayal is truth or ignorance! Untrained, unsocialised and in the wrong hands, is that the fault of the dog, No!

A lot of people take on dogs who have been wronged by humans and they go on to be ideal pets, only because they have been lucky enough to find someone who is willing to make an ongoing effort to train and understand any previous problems. This dog happened to be a staffie, Would there be such an outcry if it was a Lurcher or a Lab?

[new mother]

Let's be clear. This is not a discussion of the breed but a report of a specific incident. The victim needs to report it to the police and whatever the appropriate action is will then be taken.

Hypothesising is a bit strange when the dog has actually attacked. No speculation is needed.

[Curmudgeon]

I like staffies when they are well-trained

When I calmed down I actually realised the owner seemed at a loss - I think she said he was ex-rescue and keeps attacking other dogs and they don't know what to do about it.

I wanted to advise her to talk to the rescue home as any decent rescue home will provide advice or try to rehome it with people who would know how to help; to get a dog behaviouralist on board. I wanted to let her know that I was being advised to report to police but didn't think it warranted it.

She seemed a responsible person but a bit lost - so I just wanted a chat really

[Curmudgeon]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It would be useful to know the reproductive status

> of the attacking dog and if the pup attacked is a

> boy or girl?

PUP IS A BOY

> A 5-6 month male pup will have experienced a

> hormone surge which gives it 6-7 times the amount

> of circulating testosterone. This can be like a

> red rag to many intact adult males and they may

> 'target' the youngster. To us a 5 month old is a

> pup, to an adult dog, depending on its hormonal

> status, it will no longer enjoy so called puppy

> license.

>

> If the staffie is an intact adult male and the pup

> is a boy, this might be one explanation for a

> seemingly out of the blue attack.

>

> I am not excusing but what can look like a

> horrific attack may be something a bit different.

>

> Was the pup injured and did it have any marks on

> it?

PUP HAD BLOOD NEAR HIS JAW BUT UNCLEAR WHERE IT CAME FROM - RECOVERED QUICKLY THOUGH

> Other equally possible explanations are that the

> staffie was treating the pup as prey. Staffs are

> notorious for not being that great with other dogs

> and if it has not been properly socialized this

> may be another reason.

>

> It is not clear if both the pup and Staff were on

> a lead? If walking on the pavement were you both

> on the same side? Or did the staff run out from a

> house, or was it being walked off lead?

PUP ON A LEAD, LUCKILY I WAS HOLDING IT, JUST WALKING PAST THEIR GATE. STAFFIE CAME BOMBING OUT OF HOUSE, LADY SAID SHE WAS PUTTING HER BIKE AWAY AND HE'S NORMALLY BEHIND 3 DOORS

> How old is the staff, is it neutered? Many of

> these dogs are in rescue and extremely well

> meaning people take them on and don't quite

> realise what they can be like with other dogs.

NO IDEA

> Either way,the owner of this staffie now knows

> that their dog might repeat this behaviour with

> other dogs/pups. I would suggest the owner is

> asked to ensure that their dog is always kept on a

> lead and away from other dogs until it has

> attended training classes and can be shown to be

> safe around other dogs, having been properly

> assessed by an expert.

I THINK SHE ALREADY KNEW AND WAS AT A LOSS ABOUT IT

> The Dogs Act of 1871 might allow grounds for civil

> action if it can be shown that the dog is a repeat

> offender. See the website for Trevor Cooper who is

> an expert on dog law.

>

> If your pup begins to show fear around other dogs

> as a result of the experience you might suggest

> that owner of staffie funds some behavioral work

> with the pup.

LUCKILY PUP HAS ALREADY SOCIALISED WITH OTHER DOGS (same afternoon) SO NO LASTING DAMAGE

> Could you give a description of the Staff involved

> as I recall another EDF poster who had her dog

> attacked by a staff that ran out of a house- I

> wonder if it was the same dog?

BROWN STAFFIE - HE RELAXED AS SOON AS I GRABBED HIS NECK AND PUSHED HIS HEAD DOWN - IT WAS ONLY AFTERWARDS I REALISED THAT MAY NOT BE SENSIBLE THING TO DO

[Mscrawthew]

I believe he came from Battersea? The lady who has him is lovely and should be given more support from BDH :-(

[Tarot]

Most of these type dogs are given anabolic steriods by brainless owners.

The illegal dog fights that are held use over muscled up dogs that are deranged and have been fed these drugs since birth almost, just like a body builder who cheats, in time will become aggressive ,deranged and eventually get very sick and unfit for society

So the breed that has beeen described is no longer true to form or pure owing to the drug intervention, just like people really.

Sweet old bird or not she should not have a dog escaping and attacking anything that moves. It could have been a kid.