Gun crime in south London

[shambles]

have started this thread because the subject needs its own space...

first question - how can youngsters be protected?

[Mark]

... by initially asking them for their thoughts and opinions, and listening to what they have to say.

[batdog]

...second...

Parental education and information can also help a lot... and discipline....

[spadetownboy]

bullet proof vests?

[all_star]

cut off their trigger fingers?

[Guest]

"... by initially asking them for their thoughts and opinions, and listening to what they have to say"

Oh please! That is so pathetic. DISCIPLINE and RESPECT. Remember that? You teach them that. You dont ask them what it is that they want. You tell them what you and the rest of society expect of them AND the consequences of failure to comply with the mimimum standard of behaviour.

[Guest]

Yes, discipline will sort a lot of the problems out. Kid's don't have respect for their elders anymore. It promotes this "untouchable" image which the thicker kids want these days.

[Mark]

I didn't say "ask them what it is they want", I said listen to what they have to say, there's a difference. I agree that they should be taught DISCIPLINE and RESPECT but I was suggesting that having a better understanding of the causes and culture may make for better teaching.

[CoolEastDulwichGuy]

What do you think they will tell you???

"Oh theres no youth groups"

"oh we havn't got enough money so we have to rob people blind"

They won't tell you anything you don't know. it's a gang and territory thing, stuff you only see in the wild...stuff we couldn't even understand even if they told us because it's so petty and uncomprehendable....

[spymum]

G*d, this whole spate of violence is scary. I worry that it is far to late to teach a whole chunk of 'youth' anything - bolting the barn door after the horse has gone.

Someone has to teach the younger kids respect, self-discipline, empathy and the concept of delayed gratification - working hard to earn something (as opposed to grabbing what you want 'cos you feel you deserve it).

But who is going to do this? The parents are totally absent and the teachers are under siege. When you read about the work of that Camilla woman who runs the Kids Company in Peckham it is enough to make one weep (and chill ones blood!). Radio 4 had a programme about youth clubs closing down in Camden yesterday.

The middle classes have a huge self interest here - all of society benefits if the 'youth' problem can be sorted out. But how?

spymum

(blog: Posh Mum)

[CoolEastDulwichGuy]

Bring back caning. That will straigten a few of these unruley kids out.

Fine ?500 the parents if the kid gets in trouble for wasting the time of the police.

If the kids re-offend, cane the parents...

[Guest]

The parents are usually 'caned' anyway.

[CoolEastDulwichGuy]

By whom? Their kids?

[Mark]

From the Urban Slang Dictionary:

Caned: British slang for stoned, i.e. the effect you get from inhaling marijuana fumes.

If you listened to the kidz you'd know what they're talking about. Ai.

[CoolEastDulwichGuy]

I grew up with these 'kidz'. They use other terms for being stoned...I think you're talking about a different type of Urban Slang...yeah thats it, the urban slang they used back in the 70s up in places like manchester and liverpool...back then a bad kid was a kid who spat on the floor in a supermarket when no one was looking...

I'm a touch amused by the fact that you even listen to the 'kidz'. Bit sad.

Moral of the story: update your urban slang dictionary. It's old.

[Guest]

I blame the almost extremist primary education curriculum dreamed up by left wing local councils in thje 1980's for the current crime wave. No discipline was installed in kids, instead an education based around community learning and not much in the way of homework, my schooling at Bellenden School in Peckham was absolutely atrocious.

[Guest]

Furry Muff

You bowled me out like a Harmison bullet.

Does anyone read Playboy. It gets things going with the missus'. Try it

[Administrator]

*bob*, this is one reason why we ask people to register because as in this case CoolEastDulwichGuy has posted a message as you.

[Guest]

Good point.

CoolEastDulwichGuy.. congratulations on your 'hilarious' prank! You must be very proud.

[QZ]

CEDG - pray tell us what the yoot of today use to indicate when one is stoned. B)

Your reference point of 70's northern slang is not wholly correct so maybe the moral for you is check your facts. You are incorrect.

Here's a crazy thought - why not offer an insight to how to help rather than being obstreperous?

:))

SM - it is indeed terrifying situation and I for one don't know where you start to address the myriad of problems that are associated with this horrible-ness

[Jamie]

I think there are a whole host of things that need to be taken into consideration. Yes DISCIPLINE and RESPECT are a big part of what is needed, but so is LOVE, CARE and COMMUNITY VALUES. This is how people learn D and R.

I was listening to a programme last night about how young black youth (and I think a lot of youth in general) are missing a family structure, extended and Nuclear.

Also what is there for kids to do that is interactive with society at night...not a lot. Some parents are resentful of having kids, some parents do not know how to deal with them as they may not have the older generation to teach them and there is no real choice (probably how they feel) in what they can do. Maybe they want to feel part of a unit/part of a society so join a gang. Then they get scared and arm themselves because it is dangerous on the streets. Ok a little simplistic and sure there is more to it but surely a good way for people (us) to get involved it by going to people like the Street Reverend Guy who I have heard a lot about recently and ask what we can do to help.

One suggestion, get the money together to make the abandoned school on Peckham Rye and turn it in to a big Youth centre where young people can learn outside the curriculum and it is supported by people who want to help young people find themselves and find a safe home.

Kids are evolving and need to learn boundaries but also they see through a lot of the bullshit of society and they want to know what the point of life is.....and its not sitting in an office (no offence to office people but everybody is looking for something more real and a deeper more meaningful connection....young people need this more than "here's a job")

[capt_birdseye]

So what do you do if your close-knit family is like this?

Shock at women goading toddlers

[Polly D]

Some anecdotes of parenting skills recently observed on buses in ED/Peckham:

Mum and 3 kids on bus in the evening. Mum on phone the WHOLE journey. First she left a, frankly scary, threatening message on someone's answer phone about how she was going to 'get what was coming to her', then she rang a few friends to relay the story (adding more swear words as the story went on). All this in the presence of her children aged 8 and under, who laughed every time she swore and said "I'm so baaaaad".

Dad with 4 kids going to school yesterday. Beautifully behaved, had a hilarious conversation about whether turtles eat marsh mallows.

This morning, dad and 2 kids playing I Spy and discussing their reading books.

Nosey old bag you'll probably think and why do I want to hear about this? I'm not going to say what class or colours these families were but let's just say they broke my stereotypes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2014413,00.html

[QZ]

I saw John Snow interviewing the Trident vice chair on C4 and it was interesting.

Jamie, your point re people needing more than "here's a job" is interesting. Maybe some of the disaffected-ness of younger people is that they don't understand, for whatever reason, that you have to work (in the multiple sense i.e. physically, mentally) to earn (be that either ?, respect or reputation).

Stalking the streets, as many do, does not assist in finding a meaning to life and in a lot of cases is counter-productive in that it seems to glamourise an innate dumbness that these younger people then affect (specifically talking as though they have the verabl recall of a 6 year old).

I don't think that there is one root cause and therefore it is incredibly complex to try and solve. :(

Whilst I am not suggesting for one minute that this is a solution, has anyone seen Battle Royale? The premise being that disaffected youth get so bad (set in Japan) that they send groups to an island and run the most violent survival of the fittest programme..one survivor returns to tell their story to other kids in the hope that scaring them witless is the way to prevent it. Extreme.

[spymum]

(Groans, head in hands).

Capt Bird's eye, this illustrates my point perfectly. I was listening to the transcript of the 'video' they made and it is unbelievable that people can lack humanity like this. Can we even call them people? And though we have mocked her a bit on this board, for someone who was raised in similar circs. Jade Goody has done bl***y well considering - (and we can all see how damaged she is).

Brixton, West Norwood, Peckham, New Cross, Deptford and Camberwell (ie: all around us) have loads of kids/youths from just the same background - it isn't even about absent fathers anymore, it is about absent love, care, emotion, absent flippin' everything. Social workers don't help (pah!), nor the councils (double pah!). Tony and his cronies are too far removed from regular life - gangs and gun violence can't reach their Islington ivory towers methinks!

Jamie, your idea of turning that huge building into some sort of place where kids could find some sort of structure would be wonderful.

spymum

(Blog: Posh Mum)