Gun crime in south London

[mockney piers]

Lol QZ. I don't think Battle Royale was meant seriously as a solution, it was a very black comedy with more than a dash of social satire thrown in.

Highly entertaining and very funny.

I can't aid this discussion as I can't really suggest anything. I saw the panorama on knife culture a few months ago and it was wholly depressing viewing that suggested we've effectively lost much of this current generation, that a cycle of bad parenting leads to kids not being taught any real values and now live in a moral vaccuum. They *social services, academics, child groups etc* said we have to have money and resources available to schools and communities to turn things around from the moment the new generation is born, starting right now before the cycle spirals ever downward, but nobody seems interested in spending money on this. Christ we can't even actually put resources out there to do anything about climate change which may have dramatically more serious consequences on our society than a few converted replica pistols.

[capt_birdseye]

I'm not even sure it's a lack of love. These women may claim to love their children, but they have a completely perverted sense of morals. There was another case on that "Real Story" programme a while back, a father was killed when a yob (already on an ASBO) he'd confronted in the street punched him in the neck, from behind, causing a massive haemorrage. The boy did about 18 months in prison. His father and grandmother were both interviewed and praised the boy for standing up for himself.

[snorky]

**warning - this monologue contains primark refrences and Boden profanity *****

Some good points here and apart from the caning bollox, some sense.

We can discuss this all day- whether Thatcher was to blame ( boo ! ) or the left councils ( hiss ) or the baby jesus ( hooray ) but its not going to sort this out

We are all to blame up to a point - we all participate in ths culture of instant gratification, most of us are ostantatious consumers and have fallen for much of the marketers and advertisers guff. When the acumulation of consumer durables and badges of wealth become substitutes for relationships and affection, then you know we are in for a bad time and our society is in bad shape.

We may critisise the 15 year old mugger for theiving the latest Mobile phone and quite rightly so, but if we are a society didnt embrace this "display of wealth = status & success" ethos, then we would not have half the problems we are currently exhibiting. We are all guilty of this change in priorities however we hate to admit it - we buy Boden becasuse it shows we are richer than Primark customers and it signifies how wealthy we are ( or aspire to be )....... you may justify this purchase by saying its is better quality or better fnished - which may well be true - but do you get that much MORE value out of a better made & more expensive toddler t shirt that will be orn for 2 months ? does it actually justify a 10 fold difference in price ? I dont think anyone could back up that differential

I use Boden & Primark as an example, but this mentality seeps into every aspect of our lives - cars / washing machines/ plants in our garden/ the food we buy............so much of it is driven by the propaganda issued by others - those who manipulate our insecurities to make money for themselves and so much of it make no difference to the quality of our life, apart from the temporary satisfaction we get when buying something we think of a special or a treat - or rather what we have been taught to regard as special or a treat.

whether we like it or not, we are all responsible to a greater or lesser degree - just becasue we dont go out an mug for the latest samsung phone & buy its instead does not absolve us of our responsibility

yes, Even I, Snorky , am guilty of this.

[spymum]

Interesting one Snorky, although I would suggest that people buy Boden not to display that they have more wealth than others per se, but out of a desire to be part of the 'Boden dream' of perfect mummyhood, happy, pretty kids playing on a beach in Cornwall with handsome, still-quite- fit ex-rugger b**ger dads - so maybe we should lay the blame with the PR and Marketing industry !! I'm very happy to do that!;-)

Joking aside, capt_birdseye's point that it isn't lack of love/care/human interaction but a perverted sense of morals is even more dreadful. How do you teach someone that their twisted moral compass is wrong? Like how do you explain to a parent that goes storming in to beat up the Headteacher (a catholic school in Brockley, this was) that their whole idea of 'being' is not the way. If parents are warping their kids in this manner we are doomed. Doomed I tells ye!

I am just so worried that a whole generation is being lost. I watched my old neighbourhood (5 minutes drive away) going slowly downhill over a period of six years as a small group of kids grew to adulthood - no-one said anything, and by the time they were 15 everyone was scared to.

And BTW, whenever I saw misbehaviour I (being the feisty type of officious mother) told them off. But now that they are 6'2 (I'm 5'3) I don't think I would.

spymum

(blog: Posh Mum)

[*Bob*]

The status-symbol that really gets on my pip is the dreaded BUGABOO. Indeed, I'm sure it would be possible to calculate average house price in ED by adding up the number of Bugaboos which pass William Rose in any given hour and multiplying by X.

Surely there are better things to spend ones money on that things that are solely to be 'seen with'?!

[Paul Holdsworth]

As everyone else here has said, there isn't a single solution to this, but can I suggest one component of the answer? Wait for it - we need to get out and walk around a bit more.

I honestly believe that a key element of what makes for a cohesive, happy and safe community is simply being with neighbours and strangers in public space. "In public" is the only place where we tend to mix with people who are completely different from us, except that they're our neighbours. As a result we find our own ideas of what is normal, acceptable behaviour moderated by the people around us.

Polly Dorner had her stereotypes challenged by seeing adults and children interacting - in public.

Kids nick each other's mobile phones - in public.

Kids operate as gangs - in public.

And what do we honest, upstanding citizens, who could be setting a good example, simply by acting appropriately in public, do? We abandon our streets and spaces as soon as we can afford a car. Then, as we use public space less and less, we become more and more fearful of it and each other.

Doctors are now prescribing walking to reduce depression - one of the key benefits of this is increased self-esteem and confidence. We should be prescribing walking to everyone who's concerned about community breakdown.

The Suzy Lamplugh Trust says "busy streets are safe streets".

Make your streets safer - walk them. Set a good example - just spend more time in public.

(Those of you who've read any of my other posts will think I'm a bit of an urban walking monomaniac - you'd be right).

[snorky]

we have so much access to information, its difficult to sort out what is rubbish and what is lucid and valuable &* thats the problem. So many people are utterly seething with anger all the time, patently unhappy with what they have got / what they have not got in their lives. Envy and jealousy are a subliminal tool of the marketers and ad men - you dont need that new Phone, as it does nothing much more than the 3 year old one youve got, apart from its a bit thinner and more importantly, it NEW, EXPENSIVE & you see FOOTBALLERS and their LADY FRIENDS usieng them therefore it must be something good.

Role models are still footballers for many kids, but not cos theyse wopn the world cup, but cos theyse famous , have slim singer girlfriend and a Bently continental.Its not achievement, its image unfort.Everyone praised Beckham as a Role model - not me - He opitomised how facile we have become, even though he was a mildly talented footballer.

The Gang Culture problem is exaggerated, but its a problem and the interesting thing is that its not so much about earning a living through crime - "propa" criminals keep their heads down and get on with it - its the "image" that matters - you get shot for disrespecting some one - insulting their image - not trying to sell crack on their turf.there is no money involved in these latest shootings - the ALbanian / Turkish and Jamiacan gangs make the money from the drugs - the deluded wannabes onthe streets are the ones that shoot each other over petty and trite slights.

make no mistake, this isnt gun crime as part of estbalishing a capital wide SMERSH drug cartel , its a result of having wasted shallow lives, following fake role models projcted by the media and swallowing the entire admans output hook line and sinker.

None of these kids shot or their killers have fortunes stashed awayr or head up crime syndicates with links to Colombian COke barons - these kids have nothing at all. they live at home and eat their mums food and prowl the streets.

a wasted, exploted and utterly waylaid generation

[Jamie]

Whilst debate is good blaming society is counter productive. I think we should do something. I also think that the "reclaim the streets" is a good idea and obviously behaving in the correct manner in public is great. However it needs more. Is anyone up for having a go as I have some good idea's, enthusiam and some contacts to get idea's out of ideaville but I also know that I have a varying degree of time as I already run one business. I don't think government is going to change anything but I do think that if a lot of community people come together and do something then it would be worth the effort.......

Any takers?

[QZ]

J - what are your suggestions and I will let you know if I can contribute :))

[Jamie]

I think that kids need a place to go. I know a lot of people that run community projects and they all say the same thing, kids on the street are generally not wanted at home by their parents. Therefore I would suggest that they need to find their parenting from some other place....namely the community.

I also believe that kids will not buy into something or respect it unless they created it and are a part of the whole process. A good project will give a positive group role with an equally positive outcome. We cannot do anything without so we need to get a large group of the young and unhelped.

We also need people that are doing the work in the community already, would not want to step on anyone's toes, and we all need to help each other.

Funding (as the news has just reminded me). If we can get something good together then we need to get wealthy individuals to fund it. It also needs a constant guaranteed 10 year funding plan (minimum)

Personally I have had many dreams about the Peckham Rye school and I think that it needs to be done but I also think that funding needs to be found for the few things that are left in South East doing this sort of work.

So

1) Contact with youth group organisations and arts organisation doing this sort of work already

2) A coherent plan of what we want to acheive and how we are going to achieve it

3) Money - When we have a concrete idea of what everyone needs fundraise it.....If people give money they need to be assured that it is going to work otherwise what is the point. Therefore any planning needs to be amazing and accurate and the people involved need to be the best.

[OldTimer]

First of all we have to ask the questions , " who are the kids with guns ?" and " how do they afford these guns ".

It may offend the liberals amongst us in society, but the vast majority of these "kids" are black, hence the formation of Operation Trident...to target black on black gun crime...this is a fact and not open to debate (as far as I am concerned)....does anybody here know of any other Operational Command Units in the Met that target "white on white" crime...

How do they afford these guns ?....I would suggest that these kids are being used as dealers, by the organised drug gangs, and that the money to purchase these guns are from the proceeds of drug dealing. In fact on the local BBC news last evening and ex gang member from Peckham, stated that these kids are earning ?500 a day from dealing in drugs....so if offered a regular job paying ?250 or ? 200 a week, you can workout for yourself the response.

The vast majority of black people in this area are law abiding, respectable and honourable people, but have been let down over the years by the politicisation of the Police Force by local and national government, and the liberalisation of sentencing procedures in our courts. Whilst writing this, I am listening with incredulity to John Reid suggesting that it is the local communities responsibility to sort out these problems.......an absolute load of bollocks from a member of a government that cares only for itself, and looks down on the majority of the population with utter contempt. The black communities that are being targetted by these criminals/lowlifes/subhumans, need assistance from the rest of the community BUT more to the point needs asssitance from the Police and Government.

So how do we fight back ???

First of all we need to demonstrate........demonstrate to the Government and the Police force that we are no longer going to put up with Drug Dealers and the people that use these Drug Dealers i.e. Drug Users....without the drug users the Drug dealing will diminish.... and without the drug dealing these kids will not be drawn into a downward spiral of violence.

Demonstrate to the local black community, that we are all in this together........lets all go en masse black and white into the hearts of these communities and confront these evil bastards........I am pretty sure that the police and local government and central government, will all of a sudden, come up with some answers, build more prisons, sentence these criminals for longer and make the streets a safer place...........

It is not rocket science, but we have to stop all this politically correct crap and spin doctoring, and call it as we see it.....and then tell our servants ( HM Governemnt ) , what we all want......a safe place to raise our children, a decent schooling system where they can learn how to behave in a civilised society and at the same time educate and improve themselves and consequently provide a better society for their children........

This degradation of society and quality of life has been a long time coming, but can be stopped in a very short time, but only if we all pull together in the same direction, and initiate something akin to the policies of the NYPD in the 1990's and have a zero tolerance attitude towards all crime...........

sorry for the long rant.........no strike that, I am not sorry for the long rant, I had to get it off my chest

[Jamie]

Old Timer, I hear what you are saying but drugs is only a part of a much wider issue. As I have referred to before there is a really interesting book called Freakonomics which details a study over 5 years with a gang in NY, I think, where a rogue socioligist went and studied Gang culture, drug deals and the economics behind it. Essentially drugs is an economy like any other. For low income kids (Black, brown, white) it is a way of earning money that is easily open to them, more so than the traditional jobs like newspaper rounds, shop jobs which they may not have the necessary social skills for.

For kids to be earning ?500 a day there has to be a person earning that/stealing that. This person will be any colour and more likely than not educated and a cocaine or crack addict. Robbery for drug addiction I would estimate accounts for a smaller proportion than the rich.

I would hazard a guess at 20% of people in the UK have taken drugs and probably 50% of that number use them regularly. Drugs are taken to avoid the reality of life, they are taken by nearly every demographic in society including customs officials. I know this as a former addict I have met many people from all walks of life that take drugs.

I would say to take on Drugs you have to take on Alcohol, Cigerettes, Gambling and all other forms of addiction. You have to be committed to creating a scoiety where their is no poverty line because everyone lives above it.

I agree that there needs to be a zero tolerance attitude in some area's but not in all. I would not have got through my own addiction without my partners unfailing love. Everyone needs to know that this is the one defining quality that saves us all . For if there is no love what is the point in living, hence gun carrying and the general degradation of our society. Love is the binding thing that pulls us all together.

I definately agree that there should be more jails and people should be sentenced properly but I also think that with that you need the proper counselling and psycho therapy solutions for in mates otherwise they will just come out and bite you on the arse again.

[Nero]

It is far from a cure, but one way of at least doing something is to not tolerate graffiti, tagging, and other forms of ugliness on the streets. The council will remove old cars, graffiti, dumped rubbish etc if you tell them. Give Southwark its dues in this case as it is really good at dealing with enviro-crime IF they know about it. 020 7525 2000.

Some might not see a connection between a piece of graffiti and gangs, but the link is there. Not only does tagging etc give a sense of lawlessness, encouraging crims to take root and discouraging law-abiding types, but it also suggests that any one area 'belongs' to the tagger. Turf wars start like that.

Pick up rubbish, report fly tipping, tell your neighbours about the council hotline, tell the councillors you are happy/upset. Do SOMETHING! Nero

[OldTimer]

Jamie,

The drug economy is allowed to carry on virtually unhindered in this country, a few token highly publicised arrests of drug smugglers, whilst those lower down the supply chain carry on as they please. I had the misfortune to attend Camberwell Magistrates Court for several days (about 20 months ago) and vividly recall, two young men who had been arrested for being in possession of large quantities of drugs (prescription and otherwise) that were in hidden in every part of the car and eleven thousand pounds in cash. They were released on police bail and told to report back in two weeks time........despite the evidence to hand. You quite rightly call it an economy,and the only tax these people pay is a short stretch in jail (maybe)....no vat, no income tax, but a short stretch and out they come again. No amount of counselling or psychotherapy is going to dissuade them....thirty or forty years inside a penal colony may well make them change their ways, but not the so called deterrents that we have now.

It is time for us to think of the larger picture, these dealers are killers (either through gun crime or their clients who sometimes expire) and should be treated as such. The removal of these large quantities of drugs from our streets, would lead to the lessening of the low level crimes that are committed to pay for the drugs, but that is a consequent benefit.

The immediate benefit would be that the youngsters toting guns would also be removed. Before we get carried away and think that drugs are the only issue, I was informed by a local shopkeeper,earlier this evening of an incident earlier this week, when a young black kid walked into his shop, and accused another boy of looking at him in the wrong way, whilst at the same time "caressing" his gun that he had in his pocket. This sort of thing is going on around and about us all the time....and sorry to say this, but if somebody shot my kid, I would not want him to be counselled .....that is for certain....and until we all speak with the same voice, and tell our servants what we want, what we expect them to do and what WE will do if they do not listen to us...then this cycle of violence will carry on.

It is not only guns, but knives and the general aggressive attitude of these youths that needs to be addressed....unless we can persuade the youth of today, the error of their ways, I genuinely think that the future that faces us is more than unpalatable. We have gone past the point of no return, unless severe measures are taken.....and it is up to US ALL to ensure that measures are taken

[spymum]

Jamie, what you have done is amazingly hard to achieve and is brilliant. I, for one, would like to say that I'm proud of you.

But let's not muddy the waters with talk about gambling/cigarettes/alcohol. Ok, gambling brings in crime, but no-one broke into my house to get money for a pint of scotch or a packet of fags!

I too have read 'Freakanomics' (an excellent book) and the chapter on 'Why drug dealers live at home with their mothers' was an incredible read - according to Freakanomics petty drug dealing simply doesn't pay and the life expectancy is brutally short. All gangsters get is the supposed 'glamour' and an illusion of support from their gang.

But I agree with Oldtimer on this one - drugs are endemic in this country and its effects can be felt from all the way from smashed car windows/nicked stereos to murder for 'dissing'. Then there are death squads in Columbia, where judges and lawyers and policemen are targeted and killed. When there are 'middle class' deaths like Leah Betts (or that poor lawyer that was stabbed in Bethnal Green) we get a few squawks from the media and the government then all goes quiet. Meanwhile the safe, secure, middle class trendies snort drugs in the Groucho and off the loos in the Houses of Parliament - each line of coke and every pill has a long string of crimes behind it.

Now the footie stars, the MP's and the White Cube crowd are safe and secure, but those living on the sink estates in Peckham with these unloved, amoral, almost feral kids are not. They are poor, inarticulate and don't vote so no-one cares about them - (John Reid, I'm looking at you!). Those living next to the sink estates (US!) are not safe either (and perhaps the government couldn't care less about us too!) but we have morals; it is painful to watch 15 year olds die and it shouldn't be allowed to happen. And we have a vote and a voice, and as Oldtimer says we should use them. Now, while the media is interested.

Jamie, your knowledge and experience would sure come in handy!

spymum

(blog: Posh Mum)

[*Bob*]

Governments love a 'war on drugs'.

Why? Because it has instant 'yes!' appeal with a significant part of the electorate; because it goes on indefinitely (for it can never be won) and because it's easier to be seen to tackle the symptom than it is to attempt to tackle the cause.

Every week MANY millions of people in this country (teachers, gardeners, nurses, policemen, secretaries, mechanics, civil servants, bin men etc etc I speak from experience) pick their drug of choice (and I won't be conveniently leaving out alcohol here either!) and still manage to keep their jobs, pay their mortgages, stay in relationships, bring their kids up, and get to Tesco before it shuts.

How do they manage this? Because they have a LIFE which keeps their tendencies in check.

[Jamie]

I have started this up again because last night a van was firebombed at the end of our road.

I agree with what you are saying about drugs being untackled in this country, however there is not the police man power or will to do this. Essentially it is a global industry and a global problem which does not get solved by a localised or UK wide crack down. People who are taking drugs need to change their views on their habits. It is the only way it will work and will probably lead to an enlightened society. I also think that the only way to really get control of the situation is to legalise it, tax it, monitor it and use the money raised to stamp out the problem.

However lets be real about this Alcohol and cigarettes wreck an equal number of lives than drugs. I will not be swayed on this point. Its a slower process sometimes but abuse/addiction is the issue and not the intoxicant. Running away from life choices and having no sense of direction, feeling miserable, lonely, unsupported, unworthy, unable, useless, not part of society, etc etc.... These are reasons that dependencies exist.

These reasons are also some of the reasons kids do what they do. I believe that they are angry at the world, that they need help, support and guidance. There are lots of people in the communities doing this so I say again that I think people should get together and work out something to do to help these people in need.

[Guest]

Jamie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have started this up again because last night a

> van was firebombed at the end of our road.

>

> I agree with what you are saying about drugs being

> untackled in this country, however there is not

> the police man power or will to do this.

> Essentially it is a global industry and a global

> problem which does not get solved by a localised

> or UK wide crack down. People who are taking drugs

> need to change their views on their habits. It is

> the only way it will work and will probably lead

> to an enlightened society. I also think that the

> only way to really get control of the situation is

> to legalise it, tax it, monitor it and use the

> money raised to stamp out the problem.

> However lets be real about this Alcohol and

> cigarettes wreck an equal number of lives than

> drugs. I will not be swayed on this point. Its a

> slower process sometimes but abuse/addiction is

> the issue and not the intoxicant. Running away

> from life choices and having no sense of

> direction, feeling miserable, lonely, unsupported,

> unworthy, unable, useless, not part of society,

> etc etc.... These are reasons that dependencies

> exist.

> These reasons are also some of the reasons kids do

> what they do. I believe that they are angry at the

> world, that they need help, support and guidance.

> There are lots of people in the communities doing

> this so I say again that I think people should get

> together and work out something to do to help

> these people in need.

James

I agree with what you say about various forms of addiction. However, with these recent shootings, is it solely about the dealing of drugs and the money to be made from it? I worry that our youth has become obsessed with power, with a gun a means to convey and administer that feeling of power over others. Also, some of these kids don't seem to realise how dangerous guns are. When you look at hip-hop culture in music and so on, guns, violence and power are constant themes that come across: in the lyrics, the videos and the overall culture. Our kids are growing up being inundated with these messages in everything they encounter in popular culture. Obviously the vast majority of these boys and girls will turn out ok, but there is a minority that seems to react negatively to this way of life and take it along a whole new avenue of violence.

[Huguenot]

Oh well, yes and not yes. Nobody likes guns and fifteen year olds getting popped, but these are excpetionally small numbers in a city of 11 million souls.

Socially retarded modern gang culture? Does no-one remember football hooliganism? Mods and rockers? Fagin?

Drugs and decline? Does no-one remember Pinks and Blues? Opium? Laudanum? Crikey we even perpetrated international mass murder to keep narcotic markets open for the Imperial good.

Disaffection? I distinctly remember experimenting with Molotov cocktails as a youth, shooting pigeons with an air rifle and hanging round telephone boxes smoking cigarettes (yes, really... ;-)). I reckon it's a normal part of growing up?

Depression and isolation? Hardly modern phenomena.

Broadly I don't reckon we should feel overwhelmed by this - society is simply demonstrating it's many facets as it has done across the ages. I'm with Paul Holdsworth - reclaim the streets, get out of your car, chat with your neighbours, go to the pub, build up local social networks, go to Cinema Paradiso, get ED Comedy back.

But whatever happens, we shouldn't sit trembling in our front rooms worrying about the world going to pot outside the front door - it just ain't happening.

[Guest]

Huguenot, I agree with you that youths through the ages have gone through various types of rebellion. We've all smoked that fag behind the school toilets, got drunk with our friends without our parents knowing, stoned roofs, shot catapaults at windows and cats, etc, etc.

However, how many of us have killed innocent (or not so innocent) people as part of our growing up?

I'm not trying to argue with you generally - going out on the streets is a good idea, as is embracing our young peopl and not labelling them or marginalising them. However I don't think going to the pub or a comedy show is going to stop kids on estates shooting each other.

[Jamma]

May I suggest it's not that bad out there? That people, including young people, get killed in south london and other cities with depressing regularity but for the last couple of weeks the media's whipped up a little storm.

The media will move on very soon. And unfortunately I fear those on here dreaming up schemes to help the yoot will move on too. That's OK. We all manage to rub along as it is. Get out and about and walk the streets, put down your Daily Mail and get out and about and walk the streets and you'll see the vast majority of kids of all ages, colours and class behaving themselves.

PS - What's a bugaboo?

[mockney piers]

I have to agree with the above posters, things do seem to happen in threes, at least that's the rule before the media lash out, and agree it's mostly alright out there as it ever was and ever shall be.

The difference is that at the moment we've an absolute shower of a government led by a bunch of uttelry mediocre people so desperate to ingratiate themselves with the 'public' that they drop the 'aitches and scream i'll protect you at every moment.

So we can happily expect lots of knee jerk legislation that actually will affect our lives, curb our freedoms and so on. Roll on July (like he'll step down then..sheesh).

Sort of in keeping with this I add a link to a petition asking number 10 not to introduce legislation that seems to be heading towards making it illegal to take photos in public (which can be pretty tricky these days already thanks to anti-terror laws already introduced)

*edited to fix petition link*

[shambles]

i went on the rally today from peckham to brixton - mainly as part of my job but also out of a sense of curiosity to see who, if anyone, would turn up. thousands did. i found it very moving.

[Mark]

What do people think about the police's power of stop and search and the way it's enforced? Is it a deterrent for carrying weapons? Breach of human rights? Excuse for certain groups to be picked on by the police? If you got nothing to hide it's fine?

[Huguenot]

So far as I understand it, most of the crims are aware that there is no statutory punishment for carrying a gun under the age of 21. The younger the mule is, the more likely he is just to get a finger wag from the justice system. I believe this is why the majority of those caught carrying weapons are so young - they're the bag men.

I don't believe the police can currently stop and search at will, I think they need to have cause. Whilst I don't have a problem with this happening to me, it occurs to me that they are consistently seen as the 'offensive' arm of the establishment and that stop and search is a symbol of continued oppression irrespective of guilt.

Incidentally, we should note that this is not an opinion confined to deprived areas. ED has otherwise normal middle class people who create hate figures out of traffic wardens for protecting the rights of disabled people, young mums and other road users. I recall all of the parking restriction signs on LL being rammed down overnight when they were first installed. There are links between this kind of behaviour and gun crime.