Home birth latest discussion

[MichelleT]

The language used by medical professionals doesn't help - my labour 'failed to progress'

[anotherfakename]

just wanted to add to say that my classes were not in East Dulwich - from all I have read the classes run by Sillywoman are much more helpful and sensible. I think maybe the problem is the NCT is not monitoring its teachers and some of them are allowing their own prejudices to run wild.

[Pickle]

My NCT classes (not in East Dulwich) were similar to those that others have experienced. I was booked in for a planned induction a couple of weeks later due to obstetric cholestasis... a condition meaning that from 37 weeks onwards there is an increased of stillbirth. NCT teacher was adamant that I was making the wrong "decision", had me convinced that an induction meant my birth experience would be a medical one and that I had a 99% chance of a c-section, and spent most of the time praising others who had "chosen" to go the natural route.

As it turned out, my labour, despite being induced, was completely natural, no c-section.

Her advice was completely misguided and medically quite dangerous really. For me there really was no choice - risk going full term and loosing my baby, or being induced at 37 weeks and holding my baby in my arms.

I know not all NCT teachers are like this, but it certainly put me off going to any more classes in subsequent pregnancies.

[mrs f]

Pickle that's shocking....

I'm actually speechless that a professional can be offering that 'advice'.

[Saffron]

Wow, Pickle, that is really distressing to hear that someone with ostetric cholestasis would EVER be told that induction/hospital environment would be the wrong decision. The fact that you managed to have a natural birth following your induction is a very heartening story, especially as you didn't receive support for this decision from your NCT teacher.

I'm also a little surprised that NCT classes are so non-homogenous. It seems that different teachers are offering vastly different points of view, and possily touting opinion as fact. Our experience (with NCT in ED) couldn't have been more different. My husand and I attended NCT classes where the teacher gave us the facts about different birth scenarios and helped us understand the data for ourselves. I felt like this was the ideal class, and I can't understand why other sessions aren't run in this manners.

On a completely different topic now, reading many of the posts on this thread. One common element, regardless of birth scenario, is an obvious lack of follow-up care postpartum, immediately following the birth and in the months afterwards. I felt this too. In particular, I think there should be a national timeline for assessing women postpartum at given intervals up to a year-and-a-half, with it being the woman's option not to go if all is 100% well. As it is, the midwives check the baby a few times, and if there don't appear to be any issues, then mother is signed over back to the GP/HV. A lot of GP/HVs actually have NO CLUE about serious postpartum issues for the women, and many women don't seek treatment because they don't know who to ask. Should there be a "red book" style checklist for mothers too, regardless of birth scenario?

[littleEDfamily]

Agreed, Saffron. My recovery from Birth 1 (in hospital) was slow and incomplete (chronic post-partum issues), made much much worse by virtually non-existant post-partum care and frankly ill-informed professionals. After a homebirth, I had full care from hubby and was visited daily by midwives I knew and who knew my history. Which might explain why (as a rather risk averse sort of person), on balance (taking into account all factors), what was offered with a homebirth option was I perceived to be safer for me than any other option available.

It is shocking what others have experienced from NCT teachers. I'm amazed that a lay-person would be prepared to offer such one sided and ill informed advice to the actual person (I think theorising about these issues in general is very different). Birth is not black and white, and is a highly emotive issue, so on the issue of guilt, I think it is unavoidable that we all feel it. Although it is not right that women who have been unable to have the sort of birth they hoped for feel distressed by that, those of us who choose homebirths also face some pretty nasty criticism - I was told by family members that I was being reckless and, to quote 'was putting my personal preferences over the health of the baby'. Ouch. But it's a hard and judgmental world out there, and being judged by all and sundry (with the worst critic being myself) continues it seems throughout parenthood! That said, you would expect that the individuals employed to care for us would be professional and compassionate enough to put their judgment aside, which clearly they are not always prepared or resourced to do.

[new mother]

Have had two elective sections and it has never occurred to me to feel guilty for a second. Why should I?

I am just thrilled that I had no pain, healthy bouncing babies and intervention of a type that was monitored and calm as opposed to a panicked emergency scenario. Every time I read threads like this I so wish elective sections were more used in the uk.

Love to LM and good luck for your new baby. I imagine there are other women reading who have had disastrous outcomes for one reason or another and my heart goes out to you. Noone should suffer the pain you have experienced. Xx

[Saffron]

new mother Wrote:

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> I am just thrilled that I had no pain, healthy

> bouncing babies and intervention of a type that

> was monitored and calm as opposed to a panicked

> emergency scenario.

That all sounds lovely but...

> Every time I read threads like

> this I so wish elective sections were more used in

> the uk.

>

...what about the benefits to the baby from a vaginal birth?

[Yak]

I could write reams on my NCT and post partum experiences. I think there is just such variation in quality of both.

Back to the OP, what interests me most is the different stats for home births for first and second time mothers. Why is there such a difference? Is it because the mother is more aware of what is going on a second time round, and therefore more able to escalate concerns? That's one area I'd really like to see more research in.

[new mother]

Saffron, errr, because the risks to the baby of a birth pv vastly outweigh the marinal benefits of things like forcing out mucus etc.

The risks of C section surgery are almost all on the mother's side. To that extent it could be seen as an unselfish option. I chose it because my friends with sections had all done v well, we know almost noone who had had such good birth experiences pv, to me the risks of intervention such as forceps were terrifying as I know that some doctors nowadays are not adequately versed in usage and the fact that if something goes wrong pv, a disaster scenario can relatively easily follow.

[hellosailor]

Obviously from recent reports it seems that elective c sections may become more easily accessible but they are not generally something one can choose new mother? do you mean by going privately?

birth options aside, post partum care is this thing I would like to see more money channelled into

edited to say I want to make it clear that I'm not judging anyone who does opt to have a baby privately! Just a bit hazy on what the options are if someone wants a c-section for personal reasons but without there being a specific medical reason etc

[Saffron]

new mother Wrote:

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> Saffron, errr, because the risks to the baby of a

> birth pv vastly outweigh the marinal benefits of

> things like forcing out mucus etc.

No, I mean b/c the colonization of the neonate by the mother's bacteria is thought to be integral to the adaptive function of the baby's lifelong immunity including gut colonization. This can't be replicated through c-section. (And for the record, I'm not opposed to a woman's right to choose, but she should be clearly informed when she does so.)

[ClareC]

Having had an emergency c section first time round, I opted for elective for number 2.

New Mother is correct, the risk is pretty much entirely on the mother, risk to baby far less than VB. That said, an elective, although major surgery, is actually very safe and a basic procedure (Consultant obstetrician words not mine).

I won't go into the details of my 2 sections, suffice to say, contrary to what is being implied here, my reasons were the benefit of my babies not me. I am fortunate in that I have two healthy babies who have had far less illnesses than their VB counterparts. Also contrary to what we are led to believe, recovery was fast (out of hospital the following day and healed far quicker than VB friends with tearing/episiotomy).

Despite my positive C Section experiences, I wouldn't dream of judging anyone that chooses a home birth. Not a risk I personally was comfortable with but each to their own.

This thread has made me really irritated by the claims that choosing a hospital birth / epidural is choosing to take risk and the inference that c section is somehow depriving your baby. Words escape me!

Little Moos post was so unbelievably touching, my heartfelt sympathies to you and your family at your loss. I really can't imagine what you must have been through.

I would also like to add that sillywoman was my NCT teacher and she is lovely! Not at all like the negative experiences detailed here. Sillywoman advised on all the different scenarios and totally supported the mums whatever their beliefs / choices.

[hellosailor]

Surely when we're weighing up what sort of birth we opt for we all really have the same thing in mind - and that's to try and secure the best possible start we can for our baby by being in the best possible shape we can hope to be post birth.. some of us hope to achieve that by being in a hospital setting and others by being at home. Sometimes our decision pays off and sometimes it doesn't so much.

Having said that I know barely anyone who had the birth they 'planned', we all know that you can make all the plans in the world when it comes to your labour but sadly no-one has told the baby what the plan is! It's a hard enough process without feeling like it's a competition, that's for sure!

[new mother]

Completely agree with ClareC on all points (save re Sillywoman, but that is only because I haven't met her!).

Funnily enough ClareC mentioned her children had had fewer bugs etc than those of her friends delivered pv. This is entirely my experience and I raised it in an earlier thread as I formula fed as well and was confused by the apparent and unexpectedly robust nature of my ch. Can you pinpoint why your Ch are robust, ClareC? My only suggestion for ours is that I was quite paranoid about infection etc and probably washing their hands more often than most people. Could this have made the difference?

[Ruth_Baldock]

NM, it may just be luck?! Both of mine were c/s and my eldest has quite difficult to manage asthma and in the winter months last year, barely a week went by that we weren't rushing into Lings with an extremely sick child. He had three admissions as an in patient before he was 1, and one last week too.

Re: elective c/s - I have no idea where I stand on them.my recent c/s was a lovely, calm experience which I could not fault- like ClareC says, the consultant also said it was relatively simple, which was reinforced by the theatre staff casually talking about good local cafes and delis and Hugh FW whilst I was having mine! Surreal yet strangely heartening.

My sons birth was a spectacuarly doomed to fail homebirth, and lie the psychologically healthy person I am, I refuse to talk or think about it, full stop.

[DG]

new mother Wrote:

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> Funnily enough ClareC mentioned her children had

> had fewer bugs etc than those of her friends

> delivered pv. This is entirely my experience and I

> raised it in an earlier thread as I formula fed as

> well and was confused by the apparent and

> unexpectedly robust nature of my ch.?

I don't think there can be any doubt that, anecdotal evidence aside, the best start for human children is birth and feeding the way 'nature intended'

There is much to be discovered still on these matters, ph abd bacterial colonisation of the infant gut is just one area of research.?

We mess with this at our peril and need a far better reason than fashion or personal preference, surely?

[Saila]

I had one word on my first 'birth plan' after attending nct and all my midwife sessions - that didn't change mind. It was:

*epidural*

i never got the epidural i asked for before and during my labour. Instead i experienced threat of prolapse, utter neglect by midwives

If i'm lucky enough to get pregnant again my birth plan will be:

*elective c-section*

i wonder if they'll let me have that. I'm desperate - do they accept cheques for the extra ?500?

[new mother]

Dg, women who have had "bad outcomes" yearn for the marginal problems that may or may not come from an elective section. I find it surprising you can raise minor issues which really are the icing on the cake, if they are true at all-as they aren't my experience or that of ClareC- in a context where the downside risk is bran damage or death to the baby.

[new mother]

Ruth, loving your sense of humour and hating that you need it! For what it is worth, I saw some significant medical problems happening to a friend once, by chance as I was visiting her in hospital. I raised the alarm and she was "shocked back" - and all is well now. It took me around a year to bs able to mention it anyone and I imagine longer for her. Now we both can although it brings a sombre note to the conversation. You will process it in time darling but in the meantime have a gorgeous happy boy. :-)

[Saffron]

Ruth_Baldock Wrote:

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> My sons birth was a spectacuarly doomed to fail

> homebirth, and lie the psychologically healthy

> person I am, I refuse to talk or think about it,

> full stop.

Yet again this goes to the problem of inadequate postpartum care. A friend in Oxford was attended by midwives where the clinic's policy was to send a midwife back to the home of the mother around 7 months postpartum. Together they discussed the birth plan, the outcome, and the mother's feelings about any differences between the two. They talked about the reasons for the differences, and whether in restrospect the mother and midwife felt they were needed or helpful. It was an opportunity for the mother give the clinic some feedback, and for the midwife to pick up on issues such as postpartum depression, PTSD, or any postpartum physical problems. Surely all midwifery practices would benefit from doing this? And patients would benefit too.

[DG]

new mother Wrote:

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> Dg, women who have had "bad outcomes" yearn for

> the marginal problems that may or may not come

> from an elective section. I find it surprising you

> can raise minor issues which really are the icing

> on the cake, if they are true at all-as they

> aren't my experience or that of ClareC- in a

> context where the downside risk is bran damage or

> death to the baby.

I was commenting to you directly, and your rather cavalier comments, as it goes

Please don't try to deflect my comments by using the sad stories of other posters to the thread.

In your case I think you were trying to build a case that CS is a 'better' kind of birth all round, even in low risk pregnancies. Something which others have pointed out, is a patent nonsense

[new mother]

Well, DG, readers of this thread can draw their own conclusions.

All I can report is personal experience and what I have observed with friends. For us, and perhaps many others who I have never met, the downside risks of major problems for the baby, in pregnancies that looked textbook all along (critical point!), are more concerning than any marginal benefits that may or may not exist from a pv delivery.

[ClareC]

New mother, ive no idea why my two are rarely ill. I'm very grateful though.

I breast fed both of them pretty much exclusively until @ 6mths after which I continued to do so but to a lesser extent, using formula in addition to weaning.

My attitude to breast feeding was very much if it works great, if not I won't do it. Both babies took to it very well and neither wanted to stop (still feeding the 7mth baby, 22 mth one would still bf if I let her). I was adamant I would not fall into the category of mums that feel awful for being unable to b/f. I've seen that happen to so many friends given the pressure that there seems to be to bf these days. It's as bad as the whole birth pressure!

We do live in a house that is clean and I do wash mine and their hands often, that said we do have a dog so we are far from a sterile environment.

We do go out a lot and mix with other children frequently and always have done. When my eldest started nursery I expected a barrage of illness as seems to be the norm, she has been there 9 months so far, never caught anything and never missed a day. She only goes twice a week, maybe that's why.

I haven't read anything on this thread that implies everyone should opt for a csection or its a better birth experience. An emergency csection isn't something to be ashamed of or upset about. It is good fortune! Good fortune that we live in a time and country whereby we do have the benefit of a health service and skilled Dr's should we need them. The number of lives saved from this is not insignificant.

The best birth experience is personal to each mother. For some it is an elective C Section, for others it's in their home.

From my experience very few people have a birth that follows their birth plan (elective c section aside), that said, a csection is not a negative experience as seems to be being portrayed here by some posters, it also is not to the detriment of the baby and an easy option which is what some seem to be saying. The negativity is the feeling of failure some suffer which is not due to the procedure itself but insensitive comments and opinions of others.

Rant over :-)

[Scruffy Mummy]

DG - I do feel your pain but don't worry, as newmother points out reader of this forum can indeed draw their own conclusions about newmothers opinion based on both her tone/attitude plus our own knoweldge and experience.

As an American, I'm very much aware the culture of C-sections is much more prevelant than in the UK. So one would expect the infant mortality rate to be lower in the US than in the Uk. Yet, no. According recent stats comparing infant mortality rates in different countries we can see how the infant mortality rates compare:

6.3 per 1000 live births in the US compared to 4.85 per 1000 live births in the UK (Figures are from the 2011 revision of the United Nations World Population Prospects report, by five years averages)

Personally, I've known people who have given birth from one HUGE extreme to the other. A woman know from California who is now in her 60's gave birth to her daughter in a cabin, in a remote bit of wilderness with no midwife, doctor - just her husband because she was so sucpcious of the medical profession. (it was a easy birth and her daughter is a wonderful 40 year old with a couple of children herself) On the other extreme, I've met women like newmother who've had the full, medicalised c-section on demand. (for the record, I think if you had a tramatic previous birth experience, a phobia/serious anxiety of giving birth, or a medical reason OF COURSE you should be able to have a c-section, it's a no-brainer)

Most of us do not give birth on either extreme - some of us have heartbreaking and dreadful experiences (as people on this forum can attest too) - both at home AND in hopsital. We all have to look at the risks of the choices we make in how we give birth. People who look down their nose at other people - whether they be uber home birthers OR proponents of c-sections as the best birthing experience for everyone - are just feeding into this compeitive, b***s*** culture.

One thing I think we are all agreed on - post-natal care NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY!