European Elections

[JohnL]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I really hate the traitor remarks but this is

> > actually a really stupid story and it's a

> little

> > sad that the guy might now lose his job or get

> a

> > warning. I don't think Femi was that bothered

> by

> > the sound of it.

>

> Bothered enough to post about it. You're too soft

> John, regardless of which side that guy was on,

> it's not a good look for Kings, a warning is the

> minimum he should get...

I'm a Kings graduate and they sometimes ask for donations to support current students (so they value their alumni as they call us - and I noticed one or two had complained).

[keano77]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

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> keano77 Wrote:

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> -----

> > Beautifully put DF.

> >

> > To use some Remainer logic (sic) if Man City

> and

> > Liverpool both win tomorrow and City get 98

> points

> > to Liverpool?s 97, City should not be crowned

> > Champions because of the narrow majority and

> > because Liverpool fans won?t like the result.

>

> You are forgetting that remain vs leave was never

> a binary choice, because leave can mean vary

> different, incompatible things. It is not

> Remainers' fault if, 3 years after the referendum,

> Brexiters still cannot agree on what leave is to

> mean! Is it hard Brexit? Norway? Canada?

> Switzerland? May's deal? BRINO (Brexit in name

> only)?

>

> In fact, the option which did win the majority was

> to remain! If 48 people want water, 26 want beer

> and 26 want wine, yes, a majority wants some

> booze, but they can't agree what booze, and the

> option with the majority is, in fact, water!!!

I quite like your line of reasoning. If you?d said 48 people want water ONLY you might have been on the something. Unfortunately, water accounts for up to 95 percent of beer's content and (I?ve just googled) Wine is essentially a hydroalcoholic solution with a water content between 80 and 85%; in this aqueous component, all other substances are dissolved.

So, I suppose the moral here is if a majority of voters vote to leave the EU, attempts by Remainers to dilute that vote (geddit) by calling it this or that misses the point. To quote Maybot, leave means leave.

[DulwichLondoner]

One has to love the Brexiter's logic, and their insistence in repeating the same old drivel while refusing to answer very clear questions.

Was leave vs remain ever a binary choice? Yes or no?

Can leave mean multiple, incompatible things, yes or no?

Have Brexiters reached an agreement, 3 years on, on what leave should mean, yes or no?

Is Brexiters' utter failure to agree with each other on the meaning of Brexit the Remainers' fault, yes or no?

If you think your comparison about watering down alcoholic drinks was funny, it wasn't. The fact remains it was not a binary choice. Period.

On what planet is "something other than the first option, even though we cannot agree what this something else should be" a feasible option?

If 48 want to stay put, 26 want to go to Brighton and 26 to Manchester, what does the majority support? To go somewhere else even if there is no agreement on where??

[Hemingway]

I voted remain; I voted LD today. if we got another referendum I'd vote remain again.

But they won the initial referendum and will likely win today's.That's democracy.

Doesn't mean I don't think it is an ill thought out decision that diminishes our country internationally and will have pretty dire economic consequences and that many people who voted Brexit are pretty clueless about the EU, economics and politics, (as social media/twitter and even this thread supports). But we live in a democracy and have to accept the consequences of democratic decisions.

[diable rouge]

Keano has previously stated he voted for his 'idea' of Leave, and I don't think I'm wrong in saying he's not particularly enamoured with May's 'idea' of Leave, i.e her negotiated WA. Throw in all the other 'ideas' of Leave that have been mentioned pre and post referendum such as Norway, EFTA, Canada+ and so on, and it's quite clear that saying ''Leave means Leave'' means all things to all people, yet ultimately nothing at all, in essence just another vacuous soundbite...

[Hemingway]

yup - intelligent leavers must now realise this. Very difficult to admit though. It's a tragedy but it is democracy....

[keano77]

DulwichLondoner said:

If 48 want to stay put, 26 want to go to Brighton and 26 to Manchester, what does the majority support? To go somewhere else even if there is no agreement on where??

Depends what the question was. If the question was binary, ie do you want to stay put or not stay put, then not stay put won.

What mattered on your example was more people chose not to stay put than to stay put.

If you can?t see that a referendum that asks you to tick one of two boxes is a binary choice I can?t help you.

[JohnL]

Hemingway Wrote:

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> I voted remain; I voted LD today. if we got

> another referendum I'd vote remain again.

>

> But they won the initial referendum and will

> likely win today's.That's democracy.

>

> Doesn't mean I don't think it is an ill thought

> out decision that diminishes our country

> internationally and will have pretty dire economic

> consequences and that many people who voted Brexit

> are pretty clueless about the EU, economics and

> politics, (as social media/twitter and even this

> thread supports). But we live in a democracy and

> have to accept the consequences of democratic

> decisions.

Maybe we have no proper definition of democracy in the UK due to our constitution.

If the people want something, but the government have some knowledge that what they want is not good at all and will have bad repercussions - do they implement it anyway. What if they actually know that it has terrible repercussions.

Theresa May changed her tune on No Deal straight after a security briefing that was never shared with us.

[DulwichLondoner]

keano77 Wrote:

>

> Depends what the question was. If the question was

> binary, ie do you want to stay put or not stay

> put, then not stay put won.

Are you serious?

Are you in bad faith or do you genuinely fail to see the flaw in your reasoning?

How do you implement the "going elsewhere" option, if there is no agreement on where we should go? PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!

[keano77]

What is the question you are trying to ask DL?

If it is ?Do you want to stay here or leave here?? It is a simple binary choice. How can it not be?

If more people want to leave than stay then there is a majority for leave.

Simple if you think about it.

[DulwichLondoner]

keano77 Wrote:

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> What is the question you are trying to ask DL?

>

> If it is ?Do you want to stay here or leave here??

> It is a simple binary choice. How can it not be?

>

> If more people want to leave than stay then there

> is a majority for leave.

>

> Simple if you think about it.

A Brexiter who doesn't answer explicit, direct questions. Why am I not surprised?

How do you implement "leave" if the leavers cannot reach an agreement on where to go? If all leavers said "fine, go wherever, it doesn't matter, as long as we go somewhere" then OK, but that's not what they have been saying. They cannot reach an agreement on what leave should mean!

Again: if 48 want to stay put, 26 want to go to Manchester and 26 to Brighton, how do you turn the desire to go somewhere else into action?

[JohnL]

Don't forget to vote

[keano77]

I do understand the point you are trying to make DL but there really is no point in going over old ground and as a dogmatic remainer you wouldn?t listen anyway as your examples have shown.

After three excruciating years and an inflexible EU, Britain is faced with 3 choices

A) Leave on Brino terms (worse off than staying in)

B) Leave on WTO terms (and the Irish border is now the EU?s problem)

C) Revoke Article 50 and risk civil war

B is now looking the most likely option given the chaos in Parliament

[DulwichLondoner]

keano77 Wrote:

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> I do understand the point you are trying to make

> DL

If you did, you would have admitted from the beginning that leave vs remain was never a binary choice

>but there really is no point in going over old

> ground and as a dogmatic remainer you wouldn?t

> listen anyway as your examples have shown.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!!

>

> After three excruciating years and an inflexible

> EU,

Inflexible EU? the EU has been adamant and consistent from the very beginning! The EU is a club with its own rules/ Don't like them? Fine, leave. But don't expect the EU to give you the benefits of staying in without the obligations!

> Britain is faced with 3 choices

>

> A) Leave on Brino terms (worse off than staying

> in)

> B) Leave on WTO terms (and the Irish border is now

> the EU?s problem)

> C) Revoke Article 50 and risk civil war

>

> B is now looking the most likely option given the

> chaos in Parliament

I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember the current parliament does not want a no-deal Brexit.

Also, having a border in Ireland would very much be a British problem, too

Sure, there may be a snap election and the parliamentary arithmetics may change, who knows.

If B happens, it will be interesting to see how Brexiters will explain the chaos that will follow. Eg all those who export to the EU, what will happen to them?

[keano77]

Not ideal I grant you but if Parliament cannot get its act together we will crash out in October no matter what the prima donnas think they?ve ruled out. Macron?s in no mood for interminable extensions.

WTO though would apply in the two-year extension period while our future relationship is negotiated.

Who will be negotiating the future relationship? After today?s elections will Farage be involved?

[lilolil]

Maybe I'm missing something. Perhaps someone on the forum can enlighten me...

Why, when I didn't have a polling card and only gave my name and address was I not asked for identification??

[malumbu]

Light touch, and there will be evidence that fraud is low. But they have spoken about asking for ID in future.

[DulwichFox]

lilolil Wrote:

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> Maybe I'm missing something. Perhaps someone on

> the forum can enlighten me...

> Why, when I didn't have a polling card and only

> gave my name and address was I not asked for

> identification??

No one ever is .. It says on the card you do not need to take it with you. It's ridiculous.

DulwichFox

[kford]

No, it's WTO crash-out OR a transition, yet to be agreed. Not the same. Please read up about this!

[keano77]

kford Wrote:

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> No, it's WTO crash-out OR a transition, yet to be

> agreed. Not the same. Please read up about this!

Technically you are correct given the current EU blackmail. However I think you?ll find the EU will be begging for deals with us if we go WTO.

In the recent BBC Documentary, Brexit:Behnd closed doors, Guy Verhofstadt?s knees were knocking together with fear at the thought of a no-deal.

[kford]

keano77 Wrote:

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> kford Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > No, it's WTO crash-out OR a transition, yet to

> be

> > agreed. Not the same. Please read up about

> this!

>

> Technically you are correct given the current EU

> blackmail. However I think you?ll find the EU will

> be begging for deals with us if we go WTO.

>

> In the recent BBC Documentary, Brexit:Behnd closed

> doors, Guy Verhofstadt?s knees were knocking

> together with fear at the thought of a no-deal.

What planet are you on? They've factored in no deal. We are 8% of their exports, while they're 50%+ of ours. Who's the daddy? No other country in the world trades on WTO. This is basic stuff. FFS.

[diable rouge]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Technically you are correct given the current EU

> blackmail. However I think you?ll find the EU will

> be begging for deals with us if we go WTO.

:) Put the Brexit Koolaid down keano, you're spewing up vacuous tropes again...''they need us more than we need them''...''the Germans will give us a deal because we buy their BMWs''...''ditto the French and their wine''...''ditto the Italians and their Prosecco''....''It'll be the easiest deal in history''...

[keano77]

Well kford, October 31 is 22 or 23 weeks away. As things stand your theories might soon be tested.

[diable rouge]

100...

[keano77]

They certainly need our money Red Devil. Loads of big fat pensions and expense accounts to be paid for

🙂