I'm Afraid of Americans.. I'm Afraid I Can't Help It

[SeanMacGabhann]

many of them anyhow.. some of my best friends ARE Americans but...

I get to a free internet terminal in rural(ish) Vietnam - somebody from upstate NY has left their email client logged in and is speaking to a friend about their visit to the DMZ where they learnt about the guerilla tactics

This person felt the museum in question was "biased against the Americans". Not in an even-handed way - but in an indignant "how dare they!?" way

BEFORE ANYONE POSTS

I don't want this to be an American-bashing thread - the title is a ironic one and from a great song. But I am genuinely curious about such a mindset. Does anyone really think that John Wayne's Green Berets was a great film for example?? Or what kind of pro-American stance would one expect to find in a museum in mid-Vietnam?

[mockney piers]

That's one of the funniest things I've heard in ages.

They'd rather have had a nice balanced museum with words like Domino Effect spread liberally throughout, with pictures of GIs giving kids gum would they?

[lozzyloz]

I suppose if you visit a Native American museum in the mid west, you can expect to see the early colonists portrayed as pioneers opening up a brave new world whilst gently spreading the word of Jesus and teaching the benefits of real civilization.

[Keef]

Yeah I was in Lithuania a few years ago, and just couldn't for the life of me work out why the "KGB Museum" (the former headquarters and dungeon) wasn't more pro Russian. Just didn't seem fair.

[giggirl]

... God is an American ... (not really but I'm sure they would argue it).

Two weeks ago I washed this DVD - War on Democracy

http://warondemocracy.net/

It's about North American policy in South/Central America and it is very scary stuff. So yes, I am afraid of Americans.

However, last weekend I watched this on DVD

http://www.noliberties.com/

it is also pretty scary stuff

[KalamityKel]

washing a DVD? hmmm interesting concept.

Kelz gonna keep her mouth shut about Americans... ;-)

[lozzyloz]

Keef you should visit the real KGB museum in Lubyanka, Moscow. The British Secret Service are portrayed as incompetent, poorly trained, bumbling idiots. Now that is really unfair.

[bignumber5]

It's not awfully surprising that the museum is a little anti-yank, considering they had no justifiable reason to be in the country in the first place and proceeded to royally roger it. To be honest, the fact that this caught your US amigo off-guard demonstrates the odd way in which Americans perceive their national place in the world and the odd slant on how world history and politics appear to be taught, 2 points that I would assume to be heavily interlinked.

When we were in VietNam, we came across the rather unpleasant practice of the being highly prejudiced towards those of mixed origin, Vietnamese mother and western father (i think the term was Amerasian, but i'm not sure). The implication being that the individual was the product of either a mother with split loyalties, or rape.

As far as the modern American in VietNam and the inability to understand why they might not be ever popular, I was absolutely gob-smacked to find a group of young americans in Hoi An wandering round in green combats, fags folded into sleeve, one even sporting a t-shirt that had a pic of an M-16 rifle (service issue during that particular conflict) and the words "lets play" underneath. Added to this was lots of loud talk about "these people" despite the fact that a good portion of the local population spoke excellent English, and a complete disregard for local customs and ettiquette (shirts off when walking around temples in Cambodia was a particular favourite).

This is the only area that I have ever travelled to where I have knowingly rubbed shoulders with US tourists, and based on my experiences there, I am not at all suprised to find that others are also finding the spendid isolationism attitude of 1920's America is alive and well, but without the geographical containment. I was, from my vantage point atop my high-horse, appalled and it has really put me off wanting to go to the US.

[Domitianus]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> many of them anyhow.. some of my best friends ARE

> Americans but...

>

> I get to a free internet terminal in rural(ish)

> Vietnam - somebody from upstate NY has left their

> email client logged in and is speaking to a friend

> about their visit to the DMZ where they learnt

> about the guerilla tactics

>

> This person felt the museum in question was

> "biased against the Americans". Not in an

> even-handed way - but in an indignant "how dare

> they!?" way

>

> BEFORE ANYONE POSTS

>

> I don't want this to be an American-bashing thread

> - the title is a ironic one and from a great song.

> But I am genuinely curious about such a mindset.

> Does anyone really think that John Wayne's Green

> Berets was a great film for example?? Or what kind

> of pro-American stance would one expect to find in

> a museum in mid-Vietnam?

I had a book entitled the Worst Films of all Time and Wayne's The Green Berets was in it. The review was hilarious. I remember seeing part of the film some years later and one of the funniest bits was when a dirty, evil, cheating gook mortar bomb flew in and exploded killing one of the good guys (ie. an American). The camera panned in to where he had been and all that was left was a military boot, standing upright, with wisps of smoke coming out of it. I nearly fell off my chair laughing. The film was truly grim. Utterly awful.

I read some extracts from the script of Full Metal Jacket earlier today and one of the American commanders states "Inside every Vietnamese there is an American trying to get out." I think that is the problem with some Americans - they just cannot understand that other people don't want to be like them and do not want to be 'rescued'.

[Michael Palaeologus]

The Estonians have a museum in Tallinn, it is called "The Occupation and Resistance Museum" it charts Estonia's occupation from the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (pre-war) to 13 years ago - independence. Surprisingly it is quite negative about the Russians. Imagine that.

[Scruffy Mummy]

I was in Wales with an English friend (I'm American and Canadian (long story)) staying in cottage. We went into the village shop and she proceeded to say at the top of her (very) English voice how much better the shops in London were, how provinical it was, etc. etc. I cringed inside as all the Welsh people stared at us! So the Welsh burn down their holiday homes?? Or the Irish and Scots dislike the English? Gee, I wonder why! :)

[Maximay]

Just for the record, John Wayne was a racist who belonged to the NRA, (formerly the Klu Klux Klan now touting legally as the National Rifle Association) in America.

[SeanMacGabhann]

plus, Maximay, don't forget he had a girls name too!

bignumber5: Don't be put off going to the US because of those guys - I mean, I know exactly where you are coming from but you will meet a totally different kind of person if you actually go to the US - particularly the blue states (how American.. red and blue mean one thing everywhere else in the world but for THEIR politics it has to be reversed!)

It's a bit like people not visiting the UK because we vote people like Thatcher and Blair in plus all of those yobs in Spain - it maybe true but it hardly represents the whole picture

(then again, Stewart Lee's routine about "not naturally curious people" is running through my mind - and making me chuckle as much as Dom's snatch of Green Berets)

[MrBen]

I hear also that in 'nam you can actually pay some locals $50 USD to shoot a cow tied to a tree with a rocket propelled grenade or an M16. That is distasteful. And that you can take a tour of the rebel tunnels and dress up in uniform (Target Arms fans take note!).

It's strange that the legacy of an unjust and horrific war with the loss of so many innocent lives is a kind of theme park mentality with attractions for tourists to enjoy. I hope the museum was a fair reflection of the truth.

As for the yanks - "spectacular lack of global awareness" sums it up for me.

[Nero]

Yup, the Americans are insular. But so are lots of other nationalities, and the level of ignorance in our own dear Isles is often staggering. Are the kids in our state school system globally aware? Are Mr and Mrs Jones in their Spanish retirement ghetto plugged into the world's sockets? I lived in the US in the 80s and it was brilliant. Going from Stockport to Orlando in mid-winter, well, who wouldn't be impressed? I found the people there to be genuinely curious and interested in abroad, but not passionately so. They were happy to get on with their lives, and what is wrong with that?

Unfortunately, the US has gone from being an icon of can-do positivity to a reviled, imperialistic fortress, but the reality must be somewhere in between. If the Americans are ugly, then what are we for behaving like yappy terriers, putting up our dukes and sniping at them sneerily? I think some people get off on American-bashing, but what is that if not, in part, a kind of mirror beligerance? Nero

[Alan Dale]

Despite all your 'my friend's are American' and don't take this the wrong way crap this is a totally racist thread.

How about we start a thread that says I think the Irish are thick..

> I think Irish people are thick.. I'm afraid they can't help it.

>

> many of them anyhow.. some of my best friends ARE

> Irish but...

>

> I get to a free internet terminal in London - somebody from Ireland has left their

> email client logged in and is speaking to a friend

> about getting a job on a building site.

>

> This person was asked 'can you brew tea?' to which he replied 'yes'. Then 'can you drive a fork lift truck' to which he replied 'How big's your teapot?'

>

> BEFORE ANYONE POSTS

>

> I don't want this to be an Irish-bashing thread

> - the title is a [sic] ironic one adapted from a great song.

> But I am genuinely curious about such a mindset.

> Does anyone really think that 'th' is pronounced 'd'?? Or what kind

> of pre -requisites would you expect for a job on a building site?

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

The Americans are not a distinct race, so this can't be racist.

[*Bob*]

Alan Dale Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Despite all your 'my friend's are American' and

> don't take this the wrong way crap this is a

> totally racist thread.

'Americans' are not a 'race'. So it can't be, like, a totally racist thread yeah?

[Alan Dale]

Try definition 5 or 9 if you prefer...

race

1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.

2. a population so related.

3. Anthropology. a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.

b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.

5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.

6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.

7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies.

8. a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes.

9. any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race.

10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine.

?adjective 11. of or pertaining to the races of humankind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1490?1500; < F < It razza, of obscure orig.]

[*Bob*]

Nice 'bollocks definitions'.

Any from a real dictionary?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Alan

if the Irish invaded the UK and after a long, protracted bloody war, the town of Exeter had a museum about the events which was less than praiseworthy of the Irish, only for an Irish tourist to remark on the cheek of the museum, AND if the Irish had gone on to effectively rule the planet THEN the comparison may have legs

I have lived in this country as UK supermarkets have cleared shelves of Irish produce just because of another IRA bomb - not especially clever but maybe not racist either

I would also deny that either definitions 5 or 9 apply to America - it is far more diverse than that

When I say "afraid of Americans" it is obvious to anyone with reason I am not referring to a race of people - many American's (of the race you MEAN - ie white, prosperous and possibly conservative) are afraid of America and it's place in the world. Forget for a moment wether you think I am racist or not - tell me what you think of the even described in my initial post. Was the American in question spot on and the museum should have bigged up the American role in the War?

[Alan Dale]

I thought the events described in your initial post were anecdotal and irrelevant. I think it was a vehicle for you to express anti-American sentiment and hope that your cyber-mates would join in.

You read one e-mail and extrapolate about all Americans.

I'm sure some Americans are sick of keeping their heads down and putting up with this sort of ridiculous heavily caveated prejudice. They shouldn't have to.

I don't accept that you think it's impossible to make racist generalisations about Americans. It is. You did and do.

[mockney piers]

The Dutch Race?!??!

Apart from the one where they all skate down the frozen river, you're definitely making that one up.

And you're right, Sean is pretty thick.

But it might be interesting to think how we (english) might react to a Famine museum in Ireland, or a monument in Amritsar to the massacre. Or one of many other low points in British history and conduct.

[atila the gooner]

I'm afraid of "America" because it sees itself, or at least those who run the country and unfortunately many of the populace, as the police force of the world with the right to poke its nose it to the running of other nations.Unfortunateley our leaders here have seen fit to follow its lead more often than not. There are far tooo many examples of this for me to be bothered with listing here at this time. Americans as a people are not much different to anybody else, we all have our fears, hates and loves.

[SeanMacGabhann]

*sigh*

The only person making assumptions here is you Alan

The title of the thread is a song by a resident American with an American band

-

The anecdote in question occurred yesterday and is echoed almost hourly in the bars and hotels I have been in in Vietnam - to represent it as a minority view of Americans in Vietnam would be incorrect

Far from being anecdotal and irrelevant, the story in question is the WHOLE. FREAKING. POINT. Lessons from the past have not been learned and are biting us in the ass today

I will take the Pepsi challenge any day as to who has more American friends and you can ask them directly if they feel I am racist. Youcan ask them behind my back if you prefer. Racist I ain't. As soon as someone expressed a reluctance to go to America based on the thread I jumped in to remind them what a great place it is and how good the people can be

The only racist I am aware of is the possibly the American in my initial post and possibly you after your deranged teapot analogy above - in no way could that be comparable to the war in Vietnam. Don't assume and don't misrepresent - it doesn't become you

I wonder if anyone has reported this thread as racist.... I'll be showing it to my American friends in any case. I know who they agree with...