I'm Afraid of Americans.. I'm Afraid I Can't Help It

[KalamityKel]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> I suspect you're right there Snorky.

> That and giving NATO some excuse to continue in

> the face of noises about an EU replacement or even

> a European Army.

Oooo yet another can of worms!

[mockney piers]

To stop genocide that is taking place. To defend a nation that is incapable of defending itself.

That pretty much covers it for me.

[*Bob*]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> To stop genocide that is taking place. To defend a

> nation that is incapable of defending itself.

But in reality this will always read:

To stop genocide that is taking place. To defend a nation that is incapable of defending itself.. as long as it's economically or politically advantageous to do so, or you'll lose face if you don't, or because you've already promised someone else you will.

[david_carnell]

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot where I defended that piece of foreign policy?! Ah, that's because I didn't.

Anyway, I would extend your list of two, to include:

to defend national security or the security of your allies

to protect the economic security of nation

And if I'm being facetious, MP, do you think Iraq would be better of now under Sadaam? The roots of the current problems go back to Britain's carve up of the middle-east a long-time before Blair. Kurd, Shias and Sunnis in one nation-state? Great idea! It took a dictator to stop the killing each other. Now it's truly up shit creek.

[atila the gooner]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> And if I'm being facetious, MP, do you think Iraq

> would be better of now under Sadaam? The roots of

> the current problems go back to Britain's carve up

> of the middle-east a long-time before Blair. Kurd,

> Shias and Sunnis in one nation-state? Great idea!

> It took a dictator to stop the killing each other.

> Now it's truly up shit creek.

A bit like Tito managed to do with Yugoslavia for years, and looked what happened there.

[mockney piers]

"to defend national security or the security of your allies

to protect the economic security of nation"

you see I wouldn't. They amount to a carte blanche to basically do whatever you want. I'd categorically oppose both, but most particularly the latter.

"The roots of the current problems go back to Britain's carve up of the middle-east a long-time before Blair."

Indeed the roots were sown a long time ago, as every middle east expert told him before he ignored them all "because the man's uniquely evil isn't he".

Exactly Atila.

It takes a deft touch to steer a country through a transition like that (see post Franco Spain), not an invasion with no post invasion plan.

[david_carnell]

Exactly. And that's a fairly modern European country with a mixed economy. Transplant the whole thing to a mono-crop economy (oil) in a 2nd world country and the whole thing gets multiplied three-fold.

Should the UK/US/EU/NATO/West go around the world sorting out any regime it doesn't like or isn't democratic? I'd say no initially, but try telling that to a Zimbabwean economist an I'd hazard a guess he'd beg you to wipe out Mugabe and his thuggery of a govt. How long would that take? Best part of a week with Britain's armed forces.

But then that is Africa, so we just ignore it and hope it'll go away.

[gerry]

MP, what are you doing for Valentine's Day????

[*Bob*]

He's invading Poland.

[mockney piers]

Valentines day is a plot by the capitalist hordes to subjugate the masses through cheap poetry and long queues to get into overpriced restaurants. First up against the wall come the revolution!!!!!

Err, or taking my lady out for a nice drink.....in Gdansk.

[david_carnell]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> "to defend national security or the security of

> your allies

> to protect the economic security of nation"

>

> you see I wouldn't. They amount to a carte blanche

> to basically do whatever you want. I'd

> categorically oppose both, but most particularly

> the latter.

Really? So, Israel isn't allowed to defend itself then? If France was the victim of an unwarranted attack you wouldn't spring to their defence? I'm not having you in my League of Nations. ;-)

And if an oil pipeline running through an unstable state into your own is threatening your economic security, you're not allowed to take military action to secure it. Bugger that. I'm sending in the troops rather than plunge my country into an energy crisis.

> "The roots of the current problems go back to

> Britain's carve up of the middle-east a long-time

> before Blair."

> Indeed the roots were sown a long time ago, as

> every middle east expert told him before he

> ignored them all "because the man's uniquely evil

> isn't he".

>

> Exactly Atila.

> It takes a deft touch to steer a country through a

> transition like that (see post Franco Spain), not

> an invasion with no post invasion plan.

Agreed. The lack of post invasion plans is a mistake of cataclysmic proportions. I'm not disagreeing with you there.

[gerry]

Enjoy the drink and don't think about interventions of any kind, apart from interpersonal ones!!

[mockney piers]

If I'm so dependent on that Oil, I wouldn't be trying to get hold of it from a pipeline in a dodgy state for starters, and if I was that stupid then that would explain why I'd be stupid enough to invade said state for my energy needs.

And why do my energy needs supersede the rights of the iffy state to run it's own affairs.

Israel does have a right to defend itself (lets just leave it there, we don't want to complicate this thread any more than it is) and does so without our intervention. Likewise France is big enough to look after itself, except when it depends stupidly on a big wall, and yes, that's my number 2 reason, defending a nation incapable of doing so alone.

The League of Nations *sighs nostalgically* ;-)

[macroban]

I like Nick Lowe's song "American Squirm".

Goes something like: "I made an American squirm and it felt so good..".

[Alan Dale]

Anti-americanism seems to be the last acceptable prejudice in ED Forumland. One to go. Nearly there. Milk and honey on the other side.

[gerry]

I wonder how many Americans read this forum, apart from me?

[Alan Dale]

Can you blame them? How many Jews read 'mein kampf'?

[david_carnell]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> If I'm so dependent on that Oil, I wouldn't be

> trying to get hold of it from a pipeline in a

> dodgy state for starters, and if I was that stupid

> then that would explain why I'd be stupid enough

> to invade said state for my energy needs.

> And why do my energy needs supersede the rights of

> the iffy state to run it's own affairs.

OK, not the best example. How about an economic blockade? Could the UK use military force to end one? I'd say yes. You will, no doubt, disagree. I have a feeling we may go round in circles to a degree. Perhaps my views are better encapsulted by the Henry Jackson Society.

> Israel does have a right to defend itself (lets

> just leave it there, we don't want to complicate

> this thread any more than it is) and does so

> without our intervention. Likewise France is big

> enough to look after itself, except when it

> depends stupidly on a big wall, and yes, that's my

> number 2 reason, defending a nation incapable of

> doing so alone.

How about a smaller ally? New Zealand? I'd not hesitate to help defend them using military power. France have nukes so they can probably look after themselves...for once in their lives!

> The League of Nations *sighs nostalgically* ;-)

There is a great quote from an episode of the West Wing that goes something like this:

"Democrats want a small military and want to use it everywhere; Republicans want a big military and never want to use it."

It's not quite a truism but I like it.

[snorky]

I dont think its sneering Anti americanism itself - I love the country/ environment and lived there for a while , but detest its foreign policy of late and am a bit critical of its cultural imperialism

And to be honest, the US does sorta line itself up for critisism and piss taking doesnt it ?

[mockney piers]

"I wonder how many Americans read this forum, apart from me?"

Well, there's Floating Onion for starters *runs for cover*.

Seriously though Gerry, how do you feel reading the forum, is it a hotbed of anti-americanism?

I for one really do like the US, culturally and socially, I just have serious issues with it politically (as I do with my own fair government as you may have spotted on occasion).

You're examples are getting closer to the mark there DC. I think breaking an economic blockade militarily is actually self-defence so not strictly speaking an intervention. And I'd be happy to help the lovely Kiwis out, though somewhat perversely, historically the reverse has generally been the case ;-)

[Scruffy Mummy]

I'm American and have been following this thread with much amusement. I moved to Canada when I was 10 and so, am very used to being on the receiving end of criticism for the place of my birth!! I was brought up a Quaker and was always fairly critical of US policy - in Central America and in lots of places. Most of my American friends are pretty critical of governement and policy decisions. I have to say I don't think it's racism really - I don't mind people criticising the governement, policy decision or being critical of ignorant behaviour when they see it. I just feel uncomfortable about me, my campaigning friends and family being lumped under one big banner!

What always amuses me though is how British people - who have a vast history of oppressing others and of being known for having flocks of irritating insular tourists (i.e. packing baked beans, stag do's in historic Prague, annoying the Weslsh etc. etc) go OTT about individual Americans without applying the same self-critical ness. An example is how I was once very piously lectured in the late 80's by a young British lefty about the short-comings of Americans - which I took with good grace as I do know that Americans like any once else can have faults and our support of a governement which was often an occuping force. I did then point out that as an Englishman he too was guilty of supporting an occupying power to which he looked blank. 'Northern Ireland?' He still looked blank. 'You know, why do you think the IRA is conducting a bombing campaign on the mainland?' 'Oh, but that's different - they are just terrorists.' Hmmmmm.....

[gerry]

There is a lot of anti-American feeling in this country, so the forum is simply representing what is said most days here.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Bloody hell! I've stumbled accross a 6th Form Common Room!

[david_carnell]

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

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> Bloody hell! I've stumbled accross a 6th Form

> Common Room!

Care to offer something more mature and constructive then?

[Alan Dale]

gerry Wrote:

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> There is a lot of anti-American feeling in this

> country, so the forum is simply representing what

> is said most days here.

Sean? Going to say sorry to Gerry?