It could be worse, we could be in Ireland

[Otta]

shaunag, Straferjack is Irish.

[Pickle]

Yes, I was about to post the same in response to shaunag - they are words spoken by an Irishman so I don't think they can be called racist?

[Saffron]

Judgement errors and medical mismanagement do happen everywhere. However, the interpretation of Irish law within the practice of medicine seems to me to leave much more room for errors and mismanagement in the case of abortion law than does the British law. In that sense the thread's title is justified.

[Otta]

Innit!

[shaunag]

I don't think being of a particular nationality imparts immunity to making racist comments about that nation. I don't think labelling a nation assists in resolving any future preventable events from occurring.

[StraferJack]

Shaunag. Offence is everywhere these days and is in danger of being devalued by deflation. Lets save it for when its deserved

As people have pointed out I'm Irish. Born, educated, raised. The whole shebang. I have seen Ireland transform in many many ways over the last couple of decades and I applaud much of it

But as an ex altar boy, well versed in the Catholic Church, I am allowed to say much Irish culture, state apparatus and indeed the very constitution, is in thrall to backward notions

You can't simply cry racist or say you are offended if something is plain wrong

Uganda is about to make homosexual acts legally punishable by death. Am I racist to decry that? Or can I call it what it is?

I love much about Ireland, as an Irishman, but equally find much to find troublesome. The ongoing obsequience to the Catholic Church (after all the abuse that has been revealed?) is one such

When the Irish state removed the links between church and state I will find it infinitely less backward

[StraferJack]

And your assumption that you can still be racist even if you are the subject is odd

I might be prejudiced against particular sections but racist? I don't think so. Unpatriotic maybe? Wrong conceievably. But racist, no

Argue with me but don't claim offence or racism

[shaunag]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Words can't hope to convey how awful this is

>

> On plus side, hopefully a watershed moment for

> that sometimes backward nation

Straferjack,I spent 20 years in ireland, and 13 here. I have come up against the endless stereotype of irish being backward and stupid and far worse many many times in those 13 years, sometimes those references have been made directly at me, and have been pretty nasty experiences. Frankly such stereotypes are racist and outdated and offensive. I think the above remarks, however trivialised you make them do but perpetuate the stereotype and I think you do your fellow irishmen and women a disservice. Of course there are elements of every constitution one can find fault with, and the Irish constitution is no exception. But there are great things about it also. I'm going to stop posting on this thread now, I'm not sure where it is going or how the op envisages it should, but if you just want to bash the Irish it's not really a discussion I can add anything to.

[StraferJack]

I have been in both countries for longer than you

I too have faced the prejudice you describe (in 2012 it's almost mon existent compared to 20 years ago)

Equally I have experience rank anti British prejudice in Ireland. As recently as last month. I would say prejudice is more widespread there than here

I didn't say Ireland was backward. I said it was a sometimes backward nation. And it's a grown up reaction to acknowledge that whilst at the same time rebutting any genuine prejudice

I also have mentioned many times Ireland has much to be proud of. You chose to say I merely bash Ireland

I'm sorry but it's not me being prejudiced

[Otta]

Shaunag, you seem desperate to be offended quite frankly. Straferjack has every right to say what he likes about the country he is from. Rather than calling him racist, why dopn't you argue with his points and explain to us why they are wrong?

[StraferJack]

"shaunag, Straferjack is Irish."

That used to be sooooooo much more obvious when I posted as Seanmacgabhann

[Dudley]

SO after listening to the coverage of this story on Irish radio here are my further thoughts:

1) Saffron, if you are under the impression that Britain?s wide availability to abortion makes it a safer place to have a child than Ireland then you are wrong. Ireland is the 6th safest place to have a child and the UK is 23rd. I have put in the link to the WHO reports in my first post.

2) Further, you seem to think I have missed the fact that Savita Halappanavar died (you type dead in capital letters). Believe me I have not. There is little else I have thought about since the story broke.

I am wondering however, if your outrage was as strong when 5 women died in 18 months at Barking Havering and Redbridge Hospitals NHS Trust.

http://maternitymatters.net/fifth-mother-dies-at-worst-maternity-unit-in-the-country-as-sister-blasts-doctors-for-delaying-treatment/

In fact this report from the Care Quality Commission makes for sobering reading:

http://www.cqc.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/documents/20111026_bhrut_investigation_report_final_0.pdf

In particular pages 19-20 make clear that staff are not just negligent but abusive.

3) The point I am trying to make is that the condemnation does suggest that Ireland is some backward nation where is it dangerous to be a pregnant women. This is the not the case. They have a good standard of care.

4) If I was to do as others do and pre-judge this case; if I was pushed I would say it seems in my (legal) opinion that the care offered was sub-standard and probably negligent. She should have been offered a D&C (or abortion if you want) once it was clear that the process was going on too long. Failure to do this may have caused the infection which proved fatal.

Carbonara probably stated it accurately in that: ? was this bad medical negligence prompted by or compounded by over-zealous observance of the 'no termination' laws??

5) Indeed, over-zealous and erroneous application of the law. Again, to be clear, legally, ethically and morally speaking the doctors were not prevented from performing a D&C whether there was a fetal heart beat or not.

6) D&Cs are carried out on miscarrying women all the time in Ireland. And they administer anti-biotics. In fact one midwife said she saw them 2 times a week. Again presence of a heart beat should not stop this, as long as the intention is to save the life of the women, or more specifically, to make sure the contents of the womb are emptied and cervix closed to prevent what can be a fatal infection. The doctors do not have to wait until infection is obvious.

7) Ireland is not perfect! Nor is the UK! I have delivered 2 babies in London, one in the Royal Free and second in King?s. The care I received was excellent.

8) I re-iterate that I think the staff of the hospital are entitled to due process.

9) Staferjack: ?Because I know too many Irish people who would support what the nurse said.? You know the wrong people. And you also seem to have unbound access into the minds of the Irish. Are you omnipotent?

10) As a matter of clarity, you can be guilty of a racially aggravated offence against a member of your own race. (However as an Irish person I do not think I am of a different race from ?white British? as we are part of the geographical British Isles). But others would disagree.

[StraferJack]

Re point 10.. Really? Any cases I could learn from?

Re point 9. It's true. I do know some wrong 'uns. But you are saying you don't?

[Dudley]

9) DPP v Green, The Times, July 7 2004.

10) I don't think I know anyone who would deny necessary medical treatment to another on religious belief.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Do you know, I've said on facebook that I've wanted to post this on several threads before, and if it gets me banned, or gets reported then I HAVE NO REGRETS.

WHY does EVERYTHING have to turn into a butthurt slinging match, all the time, on here? Seriously?!

WHY all the 'errr man, you're being WELL racist!'. In fact, why the debate at all? Like Saffron said, a woman has died. It was largely preventable. It is bloody tragic. Shouldn't we be focussing on that, and thinking of her family, understandbly in HUGE mourning right now, for the loss of a daughter, wife, sister, and their unborn grand-daughter, neice, daughter.

*exasperated*

P.S. I am in agreement with everything you said Straferjack, though.

[StraferJack]

9) did a google and find a couple of references but nothing explicitly stating the premise

10)you are suggesting active admission. I don't know anyone who would say "I would have done the same". But passively " I agree with her" is more common

Anyone who has been party to abortion debates in Ireland knows how hysterical it is. Compared to the rest of western world, on this issue they are backward. How is that even up for debate?

The debate going on in Ireland since shows the country wants to move on but that established forces (the same ones against contraception and divorce) are dismissing these views. As they always have done.

[StraferJack]

Ruth

You say that like ALL butt-hurt slanging is a bad thing ... ;-)

[Ruth_Baldock]

Oh, you...!

[Audrey]

Dudley, thanks for your excellent posts.

[Audrey]

"The debate going on in Ireland since shows the country wants to move on but that established forces (the same ones against contraception and divorce) are dismissing these views. As they always have done."

So its the institutions which are backward, not the people. Its a very important difference to make.

[StraferJack]

That's a good point Audrey

But those institutions have enjoyed large and stubborn pockets of support. If a referendum was held last month about abortion for example, who would have won?

[Otta]

Dudley this is not a competition, of course many women have suffered or died due to poor health care in this country.

This is about a specific case in which, if reports are proven correct, a woman died because of a medical decision based on religious ideology.

IF that is true then it is absolutely unacceptable. Religion has no place in medical decisions made by medical practitioners. If an individual makes a decision which leads to their death based on religious beliefs that is very sad, but their choice. A hospital has no place making those decisions for someone!

[Otta]

PS. Go Ruth with the Butt hurting slagging! ;-)

[minder]

Otta please stop apologising for your links to the Daily Mail. If that's the only one you can find that's good then why not?

This week in their health pages they brought up about pulmonary embollisms (blood clot on the lung) and not many people know that this is also pregnancy related. I know as I had one a day after I had my 3rd child (14 years ago) and although I know King's didn't pick up on it at the time, the care I received afterwards was second to none.

[Otta]

Fair point.