Gay/Lesbian Parent Group in East Dulwich

[DaveR]

"some of the posters here make an effort to get out of heir heterosexual ghetto"

Evidence? Or assumption?

"Baby groups dominated by straight mothers can verge on the desparately boring, let's face it!! "

See, it's easy to stereotype by sexual orientation - even gay people can do it!

"go and hang out in a gay bar, go to Gay Pride, chill at the lesbian and gay film festival"

But do you want us there - we're boring and we don't understand 'the issues'? And anyway, isn't the whole point that everybody is free to hang out in any group they want?

I would tentatively suggest, as I did before, that the distinction between 'gay' groups and 'straight' groups is a false one - the distinction is between 'gay' groups and groups that do not discriminate (in the passive sense) on the basis of sexual orientation. A group of the latter type may turn out to have non gay-friendly members, just as it may be dull, or full of hysterical exhibitionists, but attendance is always optional.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Baby groups of any demorgraphic can be boring IME scruffy-mummy!

As for what the original poster was saying I don't believe anyone has a problem with it. I keep taking my chill pill and then someone says I had a problem with the original post - and I don't. The problem I have is with the aggressive (calling people "ignorant" and "wankers" follow up remarks - none of which have been retracted btw)

Asfor the genuinely ignorant remarks you quoted in a parent meeting - the less of that sort of thing the better- but a case could be made that if ignorant hetties like that are left unchallenged by the (bored) gat parents present then the prejudice is likely to remain for far longer?

I don't believe teh onus should be on gat people to "go" to heterosexual anythings -events should be events.if anything is self-promoted as a "heterosexual" evening then by all means let's gang up on it!

Finally (before my next chill pill)I would love to know the names of the posters you think would benefit from going to more gay events. My suspicion is that most of the names mentioned will have several gay friends, seen several gay films, own several gay albums, been to pride (or similar) several times. And that pretty much any notion (bar one or two silly posts) that this mega-thread has been sustained by ignorance of gay issues is a misinterpratation of events

now -that rainbow drinks thread that never got around to setting a date - how about we focus on that and then maybe we can see how chilled everyone actually is

[KalamityKel]

Sean you forgot to mention those that may be gay aswell ;-)

(I'm meaning those that don't scream and shout about it)

[Nero]

The male-gay 'community' is now mainly concerned with enjoyment, including casual sex. Most of the gay people I know - they're all 35 and older - are not politically active and don't (put the camp into) campaign. Most don't even wear an Aids ribbon, even on December 1st. Gay men under the age of 30 are mainly interested in earning a wage, getting pissed and fucking each other. Those over are into their careers, household gadgets, holidays and entertainment. A small minority are campaigners for their cause. Now, doesn't that sound like mainstream society? Equality! Emancipation! Ladies, we've arrived!

I've no idea about lesbians.

[annaj]

I was tempted to leave this thread alone as it really doesn't seem to be making progress, but serious accusations have been made and not retracted and there are one or two things I feel compelled to say.

cdoline and strawbs, I was really interested to read your posts, in the same way that I found MsB's post interesting, because she wasn't involved in the original discussion, and I'm sorry this thread has made you angry.

I agree that cazzyr shouldn't have to justify her desire to find or start a gay parents group, but I don't think she was asked to justify it, just asked about it. I read lozzyloz'z question as motivated by curiosity and a desire to understand. I don't deny cazzyr, or anyone, her right to hang out with whoever she wants, but I am interested to know in what way the existing parent groups were not satisfactory. Is it that she felt excluded or encountered hostility? If so, that's something I'd like to know about, because it's clearly unacceptable. Or is it that the exisiting groups just don't meet her needs? I am a fairly empathic person and I think I can imagine the additional challenges faced by gay parents, but to assume that I know exactly what they are would be extremely arrogant, so why not ask?

If curiosity is going to be redefined as prejudice then how are we supposed to get to know each other?

I can see that the questions may have irriated and even offended, although I'm sure they were not intended to, but I still don't see how they were homophobic. Homophobia is the unreasoning fear of or antipathy towards homosexuals or homosexuality. Where is the fear or antipathy in the questions asked?

scruffymummy, I found your assumption that those of us who disagree with cazzyr's attitude must be ignorant "hetties" who isolate ourselves from gay and lesbian events and communities rather rude and patronising. I'm not going to start listing my gay-friendly credentials, nothing could sound more naff at this point than "some of my best friends are....", but please don't make such broad assumptions and generalisation.

So, in summary...

I respect cazzyr's right to find or start a gay parents group and don't think she should have to justify her wish to do so, but my initial opinion that she over-reacted hasn't changed. I accept that others on here read lozzyloz's comments differently and offence was caused, although I believe it to be unintentional and for any part I had in that I am sorry.

I am not "hate-filled" "ignorant" "misogynistic" or "homophobic" and until anyone can show any evidence that I am I will continue to feel wrongly judged and insulted.

ps lovely pictures Mockney!

[bignumber5]

I've discovered this thread late in the debate, as is my gift, and I can't help thinking that lozzyloz's original query might be exactly the type of open discussion that helps to develop understanding of cultural groups that feel misrepresented or poorly understood, and opportunities like that should be seized enthusiastically by members of the group in question. To assume that the question comes from a judgemental standpoint and to become defensive is not an unexpected reaction, but nor is it necessarily justified.

Could those who are doing the judgemental name-calling (which is anyone who has called anyone else a homophobe on this thread, as that is the only judgement that I can see) please participate in the following home exercise:

IMAGINE: that lozzyloz worked for Southwark Council, and had an instrumental role in the development of parenting support services for the borough. Now read his post way back on page 1 of the thread and ask yourself if, with that context, the question that he asks seems "homophobic" or if it is about attempting to identify a need within the local community?

Seems like a reasonable question to ask given the situation, and it seems to be asked politely and with due consideration to it's target audience, I should say. Top bit of market research.

Now back to the world where loz isn't in such a position (unless that is what you do, loz!). Isn't the question still about raising awareness? That members of the community are trying to help accomodate eachother, by identifying what about existing parent groups doesn't work for you and trying to see if it could be changed? There may be a number of same-sex parents who do not have the courage to ask for the help that they need and feel excluded from parenting support, in a way that could be rectified by someone in the same position taking the time to raise awareness within their local community on a local forum.

Name callers, I think you're missing a great opportunity to educate here. But you haven't missed it... yet - we're all still here, all with the same latent interest in how we can make daily life easier for eachother.

I think to call us "homophobic" for that and accuse us of being prejudiced is bitterly ironic. I can only speak for myself on this one, but to be unfairly accused of a prejudice is one of the most deeply offensive and saddening things that another person can do to me. I'm not suprised that some of the forumites that are embroiled in this are feeling more than a little hurt.

[Scruffy Mummy]

Yes, ok I was feeling like being a stirer - (as many of us tend to do in the longue) at times in my previous post! Apologies to all I offended in the heat of the moment!!

But my main point was the the accusations in this thread seemed to question what I think is a legitimate need for lesbian and gay parents to have a group in which they can meet and discuss issues that they share that parents who aren't lesbian and gay don't understand. Also a place where they can just 'let their hair down' and not have to always be the one to educate heterosexuals.

My point Anna J was that I have seen alot of threads saying 'but how will I (a presumably straight person) learn about the issues facing lesbians and gay men if they never come to our groups'. My response to this is that I think it's abit much for people in the majority group to always expect people in the minority groups to have to come to them to educate them. Feminist and black American theorist Bell Hooks makes much the same point in talking about how white people often expect to be educated by black people - instead of white people making an effort to educate themselves! And that has always been my main issue with this thread - people say they want to find out more but don't seem to want to do the work themselves to find out the issues involved.

If you make an effort to understand the issues and culture and discrimination involved, then I believe that your practice or group or whatever you do will be more open to people from diverse cultures/backgrounds/groups.

With that, my lovelies, I am off to bed!

[Bellenden Belle]

Mmmm, I hear your point Scruffymummy but actually it's a question of how we educate ourselves isn't it? if education comes from having an inquiring mind and asking questions and being prepared for the answers then I think lozzyloz exhibited all those qualities in his post on page one.

Surely having a dialogue on forums like this is one way we can go about learning more about lives different to our own. If people are geuninely interested then is it really such a drag to engage with them?

[Scruffy Mummy]

Ok, so I haven't gone to bed yet and couldn't resist one last look at this thread!

Part of the problem is that asking questions via the forum or email means that it is very open to misunderstanding. I really could see how CazzR got offended - to me I read it as hostile questioning - although I can also see that it wasn't meant that way. If I was having a dialogue with someone face-to-face, and I could see the person - who might have said it with an inquiring, open, smiling (but maybe naive) face, I would have just thought - oh love, here I'll let you in on the reasons why this is important. And it would have been a geniue dialogue.

I also think sometimes people really underestimate the feeling of having to ALWAYS defend your personal choices - if you are lesbian and gay - you're always on the defensive. So what would seem like innocent questioning - then appears like another attack like 'What do you need for anyway?? Explain yourself!!' Which is how it was read.

Personally, I love the internet but I don't think it's really is a place where different groups understand each other - mainly where different groups just become more entrenched.

In the US, many (though not the majority) of High Schools have what are called 'Gay-Straight Alliances'. And that's where gay and straight staff and students come together to work on issues around homophobia and bridging the gap in knowledge between different people of different sexualities. That's the way forward guys!! East Dulwich Gay-Straight Alliance!

[iskandar]

Strawbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Wow Im shocked at the legs this thread has..

>

> No one should have to justify why they are wanting to meet up

> with a particular group of people - full stop.

>

This is the key point for me. As a gay man I relate to the OP's reaction to being questioned in such a away, even if it was not intended to be offensive. Much has been said that presents a fair interpretation of the OPs reaction. And Scruffy Mummy;s comments were particularly insightful.

Most gay people I know have suffered many challenges in life that heterosexual people never have to face, the comming out process, isolation, depression, rejection from family and friends. I for instance was never able to tell my parents until I knew I was financially independant of them just in case I was ostracised and cut out from thehe family. I have friend who have suffered as much if not worse.

Because gay peoples experiences are in part 'different' we do sometimes want to hang out with people of a shared experience for mutual understanding and support. So I was not suprised at the OP's reaction to questions that asked her to justify her choices even if they were innocent, though I thought the question belayed the questioner's ignorannce and I guess I may have reacted in a similar way it had been directed at me.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Some good and interesting posts coming in here but many of them seem to go back to the original post when I believe things have moved on

Surely by now, enough people have posted re-affirming cazzyr's right to setup or attend any group she wishes. And if some people can see why she was offended that's been expressed too

But what's pertinent NOW is that after dying down for a couple of months, the OP came on and took a huge, offensive and deliberately malicious swipe - and that's ok is it? It might have been understandable back at the time but as I say several months have passed... several people have posted very eloquent and often personal posts but still people are talking as if the accusations are true and some of us need "educating"

or am I going mad?

[Strawbs]

@AnnaJ - Rest assured it didnt make me angry in the slightest - why would it? I along with everyone else was just expressing my opinion..

@ SeanMcG - I agree with you that after all this time for someone to then come on purely to reignite the thread and insult is bang out of order so no youre not going made and I guess that is what has now given this thread legs..

:)

[SeanMacGabhann]

thanks Strawbs

(although I quite like the idea of being "made" ;-) )

* sips first coffee of the day and senses harmony descending once again *

[Strawbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> thanks Strawbs

>

> (although I quite like the idea of being "made"

> ;-) )

>

> * sips first coffee of the day and senses harmony

> descending once again *

ha ha ha ha bugger I hate those pre 9am spelling mistakes.. Off to make a herbal tea!

:))

[lozzyloz]

It's a mad mad world Sean.

Going back to my original post, I was slightly overstating my ignorance. My curiosity was more about understanding why cazzyr had to make such a forceful point about hetero groups and why she felt so isolated as the only gay etc.

Well I'm glad I asked the question.

It's seems to have exposed another agenda all together. Nothing to do with sexuality and nothing to do with having to justify an action.

Clearly some people feel that because they are in a perceived minority and may have suffered difficult experiences, they arrive at the conclusion that anyone not sharing those experiences must be against them. It's a behaviour that's absolutely normal. You feel vulnerable so you lash out in order to warn people away. At the same time though you often risk alienating those around you that could become part of your community. At the same time you create special rules because you're an exception. Yet these rules, if applied to the mainstream would be totally wrong, like a positive discrimination in reverse.

It's a shame that cazzyr feels the need to toss in a string of insults rather than engaging in the debate, but that's her prerogative. I don't think that because you've had a tough time being gay that can be justified. But perhaps it is understandable, which is why many people would want to dig below those feelings to the source of the pain and work out a way to replace it with love rather than hate.

Somewhere earlier in this thread I made my peace with cazzyr (which she accepted) because it was never my intention to cause offence, but simply to open up a debate (this is a forum) on a subject which makes a minefield in Mozambique look like a manicured lawn. Some posters have jumped in and deliberately turned up the heat with out actually contributing anything positive. Others have really tried to be sensitive and understand all sides of the discussion.

I'll say it again. It doesn't matter what the issue; colour, race, religion, football, wealth, sexuality or which parenting mantra you follow, this is just another example of why some people can get on and live together and others find every reason not to.

[mockney piers]

In some outfits there is something of the *made* about you Sean.

I'm thinking Paulie Walnuts

 

[david_carnell]

Genius! >:D

[SeanMacGabhann]

oh great - now my boss wants to know just what the hell is so funny and I can't stop laughing....

Actually that pick of me and you outside the george on your flickr isn't so far off the mark

[david_carnell]

MP might need to put on a few pounds before you two start a local protection racket!

[SeanMacGabhann]

"ay! not fur nutin dc but.... "

Clearly I wasn't comparing MP to TS - but teh picture I'm speaking of already had me labelled as a hit man

[KalamityKel]

Not wanting to reignite any issues but...

Scruffy said "Baby groups dominated by straight mothers can verge on the desparately boring, let's face it!!" How are they boring? I mean from any other group? Not being a parent myself I have absolutely no idea of the interest/activity of any parenting group so I only ask out of curiousity :)

[Scruffy Mummy]

Sorry - I was really just being a wind up merchant. Really, all baby groups can get desparately boring - despite the sexuality of the parents involved - it's just the circularity of the discussions - sleeping/gina ford/weaning/tiredness can get a bit much.

[KalamityKel]

I have a few bottles of rum I'm willing to pass on if that helps :))

[annaj]

Oh dear, I can see that this is all calming down now and I know I should just walk away (but not flounce off Sean) but I just can't. I'm sorry.

First I have to agree with Sean, the orginial debate will never be settled, there will always be (at least) two interpretations of what was said. I accept that, but I still don't accept someone coming back after a couple of months and insulting everyone who disagreed with her.

Scruffy Mummy, your posts have been interesting and well written and I think you make some very valid points. I do have to point out some of the things I said in my early posts on this thread though.

You said: "I also think sometimes people really underestimate the feeling of having to ALWAYS defend your personal choices"

Back on page one I said: "I can't say I know how you feel or what you're experiencing, but I can imagine that you face a fair amount of prejudice and ignorance. Maybe that has left you feeling defensive"

You said: "this thread seemed to question what I think is a legitimate need for lesbian and gay parents to have a group in which they can meet and discuss issues that they share that parents who aren't lesbian and gay don't understand"

Again on page one I said: "I see the purpose of and need for an exclusive support or social group"

You said: "Part of the problem is that asking questions via the forum or email means that it is very open to misunderstanding"

Last time now. On page one I said: "good point about text being easy to misinterpret or take out of context, because it's presented without all the subtle extra cues of face-to-face conversation."

So, if you actually read what I've written perhaps I'm not as backward and ill-informed as you've implied. Maybe, just maybe I'm saying a lot of the same things you are.

As for the question of education and who should be resonsible for educating the ignorant masses. I completely agree that feeling constantly under pressure to explain and defend your lifesytle must be exhasting and frustrating. So, sticking with your assumption that I'm completely ignorant to all gay issues (because it is an assumption, I never asked the questions just defended someone elses right to. You actually know nothing about me, who I am or who I know) how should I educate myself if not by asking questions? It's just that I think I'd feel a bit silly pitching up to a gay parents group, just to watch and learn!

Iskandar, I accept that gay men and women may have different needs and benefit from specific support groups (as I think I've said a few times now), but the assumption that straight people can never understand what it's like to suffer prejudice or other challenges is a bit simplistic. It reminds me of the Pulp song "Common People" where good old Jarvis whines about how the middle classes never suffer anything. I know that I will never understand how it feels to be discriminated against on grounds of sexuality

and that gay men and women experience challenges that I never will, but that doesn't mean that I haven't expereinced prejudice, isolation, bullying, judgment, fear and loss in other contexts.

Last, but not least, am I the only person who sees the irony in the OP referencing the only-gay-in-the-village character? Surely that's a sketch where much of the comedy comes from the gay character percieving prejudice where there is none?

[Scruffy Mummy]

WHOA! Anna J - I wasn't intended at having a pop at you - I was responding to the post from Bellenden Belle really and her question in my second posting after her post. Orginally, I didn't really go through your post with a fine tooth comb and missed your many insightful and intellegent points that you made. You sound like a really loving and thoughtful person who cares very much about the world and your impact in it - I'm sure you have touched the lives of many who you've come into contact with - regardless of their sexuality.