kings A and E dept

[CamberwellOz]

I can't stand people being rude like that. We took in chocolates and wine after I had my baby. I even went back to the MAU with my newborn to thank them for how much time they spent with me and what they helped make. Even though I was a bit disheartened by the whole experience at Kings, I never once acted like that patient myhondarepsol mentioned. I know you are stretched to the limits as the line to have children in this area is growing exponentially.

I worked in personal care for over four years and the thing that got to me was watching everyone become emotionless beings. Working their fingers to the bone to tick off all the boxes that they have to but forgetting that the people they were working for were people. I quit my last job after having a fight with the ward nurse because she said because of me there were too many elderly people in the lounge having too much fun and causing a little too much trouble when she brought in people to look at the nursing home. There was one lady there who cried whilst I was chatting to her because she hadn't left her room for over two years. (She was very large and quite hard to move around) Nearly every shift one or more patients would come up to me begging me to show them the way out. Crying on the way home became quite a ritual.

That is what makes me upset. I felt like a lot of the people working in the maternity ward at Kings were tired and I had just become a number.

[myhondarepsol]

Hi, CamberwellOz!

I totally agree on you about the "BULLIES". Had a hard time with them too...

[CamberwellOz]

I just could never draw the line between work and people. I could never switch off and become hard. It nearly broke me in the end. I changed careers to find some sanity.

[????]

If we have another child, we're going private without a shadow of a doubt for whatever reasons the level of attention you get is frighteningly poor...to be clear I am NOT blaming the overworked personnel here. Naively with my first and with my eyes a bit more open with the second we went through Kings...scarily left on your own or often with pretty junior midwives...plus a scary sense that half the agenda is protecting themselves from any potential litigation if something goes wrong..and of course in most cases it doesn't so keep those fingers crossed senior management. Of course, if there was an incentive (tax break say) or some form of choice/vouchers system encouraging private use then that would releave pressure on the overstretched universal system to the bebnefit of all and so improving an (admittedly now a two tier system) at all levels, but oh no, dogma tells us that's privatisation and the NHS is a sacred cow....and so we put up with an overstreched/and often failing system...........(see also Education). Gawd the well intentioned liberal left create a lot of unworkable crap with their 'principles'.....

[????]

Lowest common denominator rules ok

[Siduhe]

If we have another child, we're going private without a shadow of a doubt for whatever reasons the level of attention you get is frighteningly poor...

Without going into gory details, going private is no guarantee of a positive experience. A friend of mine had a very difficult time at one of the places you regularly read about celebrities giving birth in. All completely avoidable if she'd been given proper attention and care. She later accepted a substantial settlement on behalf of herself and her baby, but still hasn't quite got over it. I think the most important thing is to find somewhere you like and a midwife you trust.

No social viewpoint to push - I have private heath insurance, but in an emergency I'd definitely want to be in an NHS hospital.

[Asset]

And what about the woman who got the epidural in her arm or summing and subsequently died - she was in private care too I believe.

[bawdy-nan]

The NHS already operates with some provision from "independents" and if Lord Darzi has his way this will be enormously increased. (Note the announcements this week on "failing" hospital trusts which are to be taken over by the private sector.)

The much trumpted ISTCs which were introduced supposedly to increase capacity did no such thing, had 25% of its staffing provided by NHS staff on "secondment", per procedure cost much more than treatments provided by the NHS and failed to provide adequate data in order that clinical standards could be measured and yet they are bing used as the model upon which the new reforms will be built - ie the expansion of the role of the private sector.

The recently departed Commercial Director of the NHS - Chan Wheeler (who said he left to "spend more time with his family" rather than assist enquiries into the fraid trial being faced by United Health, his previous employers in the states and bidders and providers of much "independent sector" treatment in the UK) said in his departing statement that he was delighted to have massively increased the potential for the commercial sector to deliver services in the nhs and that the continuation down that road was now inexorable.

Whatever the idealogical stance there is simply no evidence that the private sector delivers services more efficiently, better or with better value for money.

The Select Committee last year turned no evidence that the ISTCs had met the government's stated aims and there gave been numerous foi request answers that have demonstrated that the data shows quite the opposite.

[????]

random examples of personal experience of private births going wrong hardly constitute an argument...it's up there with..."smoking doesn't do you any harm, my grandad smoked 20 a day from when he was 13 and lived into his 90s".....if someone can get me some facs that demonstrate this 'truth' I'll believe them

[Siduhe]

???? - couldn't agree more, and my post wasn't intended in that way. I think it's more important to find somewhere you think you will get the right kind of care, whether that's NHS or private. Also not to have a false sense of security, over something as important as the birth of your child.

[bawdy-nan]

I agree that anecdotal reports don't prove much but I was talking about the findings of the Parliamentary Select Commitee that looked into ISTCs as well as government data released under FOI requests. Which bit are you not convinced by and I'll try and dig out the data for you?

I don't think there is any evidence at all that the independent sector delivers better outcomes for patients.

I think the most positive thing to be gleaned is that patients treated by the independent providers had positive things to say about there being more staff about and the toilets and bathrooms being clean. Given that each procedure carried out in these centres was costing the nhs far more that the same procedures carried out in nhs hospitals and clinics this doesn't seem surprising.

The govt is keen to expand the role of the private sector within the nhs - I' not talking about BUPA hospitals here and as far as I know they aren't talking about patients being able to "top-up" their care (as the case of the cancer patinet who died recently after being refused treatment because she chose to buy some drugs privately demonstrates - Alan Johnson was vehement in his assertion that to allow top-ups would lead to a two tier system). The expansion of the private sector in the current reforms means that private sector companies are being used to provide "normal" nhs services and the government wants this to grow.

The private sector - multinationals like United Health - are keen to step in to drink from the guaranteed income streams promised without delivering more choice or better value for money as the arguments in favour of the system say they will.

[????]

bawdy-nan,

you clearly know a lot about this so maybe you can help me with my 'prejudice' but when I've had private health (I worked in spain for a year so my employmee covered my family) my experience was far better - admittedly slightly based on the cosmetic facts that appointments were easy to make, happened on time and facilities etc seemed cleaner brightr etc rather than any demonstartable clincal competence (which thankfully wasn't needed) however, to slightly hypocritically go back to my personal experience, anectodotally my health concerns were dealt with thoroughly too (after all you are paying for it directly) whereas on a standard GP visit it feels like they've got 5 mins to deal with you to keep on schedule (which is annoying as you are paying for it indirectly).

Anyway, it 'feels' to me that the system is basically broken (and will get worse given demographics, increased demand and increase sophistication of treatment) and the current use of private agencies is a political compromise, a sticking plaster solution when root and branch reform is needed.

[????]

*employer and numerous other typos

[SeanMacGabhann]

* coughs *

I believe there was a discussion about this in the Lounge - perhaps we could carry the private v NHS chat on there and leave this thread to be about Kings specifically before it too gets lounged?

[zephyr]

When it comes to having a baby and the choice is 'private' or 'NHS' the first decision to make (assuming the mother is low risk) is do you want your care by midwives or doctors. Private can be split between private obstetrics (care by a doctor at either a private hospital such as the Portland or sometimes at an NHS hospital which is preferable in my opinion if you have this particular choice). The other private option is an independant midwife and I know there are a few who cover this area. They give much more personal care but you need to remember that they are not regulated under the NHS, in fact they are not even covered by the Healthcare Commission. Under independant midwives you either deliver at home or at a birth centre. It is very unusual for independat midwives to deliver in hospital as they do not have NHS contracts. Certainly in my own hospital they HAVE to hand over care to a hospital midwife if they need to transfer a woman in albeit the minority of their cases.

Under a private doctor you are MUCH more likely to have an instrumental delivery or caesarean section (major abdominal surgery). It may b available under private medical insurance but independant midwives generally are not (cost about ?5000 for a care package).

I may be biased but I would whole heartedly recommend care under the NHS (even at Kings!)

[Moos]

I know I've said this before (and on this thread) but it was a while ago now, and the recent tone of reports is pretty much that people having babies at King's felt that they didn't get the treatment they would have wanted, so...

I had the Moosling in June '07 (I think same time CambyOz had her Ozling) and we thought they were fantastic. From the 3 midwives who walked us through the very long labour to the theatre team who eventually go the job done and the 3 days of aftercare from yet more midwives, they were kind, professional and competent. Clearly very busy, but really made time for patients. We were and are incredibly grateful, and if I ever lose my mind and have another one, we'll be back.

Of course one person's report does not a system make, but thought it was worth my two-pennorth. If, however, you're sick of reading this from me, do say..

[prdarling]

???? if you are in East Dulwich and in reach of the Oakwood or Brierley midwives (I think there is one other team beginning with A?)it's like having an independent midwife on the NHS. I had both of my boys with the Oakwood midwives but gave birth at Kings. The midwives work in a team of 3, all routine appointments while pregnant are held in your home and the 3 midwives take turns in seeing you so you get to know them all, then one of them delivers your baby either at home or at Kings. I can't fault them. I know this is a thread about Kings so i will add that you don't need to come across hospital midwives if you use the above system as the Oakwood midwife (or similar) stays with you until baby is born, but you will meet the Kings midwives on the post natal ward which is beyond a joke for all the reasons already stated. If you have to stay on a postnatal ward, sort your own food and painkillers out, it's a lot quicker, but ???? the midwives in ED are amazing - private atyle care for no extra cash.. pretty incredible

[giggirl]

Having lived in ED for many years now I can honestly say that I've never had a problem with Kings A&E and once, over Christmas of 1993, I actually found myself on life support there. Suffice it to say, I pulled through.

I've just stumbled across this news report from a NYC emergency room - it's brutal

http://www.snarkygossip.com/2008/07/02/shocking-video-of-mental-patient-who-is-ignored-until-she-dies/

[buggie]

At work at the moment (well on break @ work!) so can't access the video but if its the one I think it is (the woman left dying on the floor of the ED) seeing it made me feel sick, and proud that despite the days where there are long waits for dr's or transfers to wards myself and my colleagues would never allow that to happen.

[giggirl]

Buggie - yes it is the one you think it is. Made me sick too. A nurse actually kicks the poor woman to see if she moves. How shocking is that.

[buggie]

think it might have been a security guard = the report on the bbc website said seven members of staff had been fired over the incident.

[Pickle]

Just wanted to add to this again... had to take new baby Pickle (1.5 weeks old at the time) to kids A&E a week or so ago after being referred by the midwife and GP. I can't praise the place highly enough! I'd never experienced the kids section before, but what a fantastic team - we were seen straight away, nurses & healthcare assistants (apologies if not the correct term) absolutely lovely, paed fantastic.

They were all super professional, very reassuring, and made an otherwise stressful experience quite pleasant!

Baby Pickle needed a follow up consultation a few days later, and the paed told me what time he'd be working and just to arrive and ask to see him rather than having to book an appointment through the wards. Sure enough, when I arrived at the specified time he was there, remembered us and once again was fantastic.

Well done Kings!

[buggie]

Thanks for this Pickle - our HCA's haven't started yet so will have been all nurse's that you saw, will show the girls this (on my break at the moment). We always try our best so it's lovely to hear when the parents feel we have too x

[Pickle]

Brilliant Buggie... nice to know that the praise is actually reaching the people that deserve it. Maybe you were one of the lovely staff I met on my visits!

[buggie]

will pm further details to see if it rings a bell!!