To the well informed and the not so nearly well informed.

[Fabricio the Guido]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html

[Otta]

I blame the Daily Mail.

[Marmora Man]

It's ignorance of numbers that's often to blame.

Typical Daily Mail / Express Headline - this new drug / treatment / exercise will halve the risk of XXX cancer.

Look at the figures and it does halve it - from a 1 in 100,000 likelihood to a 0.5 in 100,000 likelihood. Both are remote possibilities - so whatever you do it's bloody unlikely you'll be affected.

[El Pibe]

In that respect I think journos are as bad as their punters these days,especially on science reporting.

But you can bet your bottom dollar that UKIP's fortunes were in part based on the perception of immigration figures rather than any of the facts, though I guess for some 10%, 30% same difference as 1% would be too high.

Other than that, wot otta said

[maxxi]

There was a similar report last week on what the real cost of 'Health Tourism' is versus what the tabloids/UKIP claim it is. Though that is more the art of diversion aka the 'Look over there' technique.

[woodrot]

a man in the pub told me that Shariah law is now in place in parts of the UK- you can now get your hands chopped off for shoplifting, by an Iman.And they give asylum seekers a cash bonus and brand new driving licences when they step off the plane, so they can start minicabbing straight away.

S'true.

[StraferJack]

but you can't call these people stupid gombeens, you have to "engage with their legitimate concerns"

Apparently.

Instead of dealing with important stuff, the 2 years leading up to the election will be everyone talking about the the perceptions in that report as if they were real - which isn't a waste of time at all, nooo

[????]

like for example the diffence between a budget defeceit and the national debt for eg? Because people will be banging on about that in newspaper columns, in the House of Commons (cough, Balls and Osbourne) and on here in almost total ignorance at the next election still.......

[StraferJack]

nope not like that at all

"there is too many foreigners here" - not really look at this number. So no problem really

"crime is out of control" - again, not really, look

"there is a huge budget defecit AND a national debt problem" - yep there is, anyone got any ideas on how to fix it? 5 years of global leaders, established economists and various measures haven't been able to find a solution. I'm all for people continuing to talk about that one

I don't think they are similar

[????]

Apart from the world of completley barking PC, which seems to thing they are undebatable, both the level of crime and immmigration are perfectly reasonable things to debate It is you who has created the extreme statements above to dismiss them - for eg how about how are we going to deal with the issue of pressure on inner London schools and hospitals as a result of increased immigration. These topics are perfectly debatable and need debating without making you a racist hanger & flogger - getting your facts right is important as without them we get prejudice, and, as this research shows most people don't.....

..so, given that govt spending is also an important part of life, huge swathes of the population, and not all Daily Mail readers, show enormous ignorance on something as basic as understanding of the difference between the Budget Deficeit and the National debt. Or where our tax revenues are generated proportionally etc etc

They, as in things that effect us all, are similar. Your deliberate statements of prejudice above are not and can easily be refuted by the facts....but that don't mean crime and immigration cease to exist as issues. Apart from 'you know where*', of course.

*hint, national broadcaster/Newspaper beginning with a wiggly g

[StraferJack]

This is ridiculous.

Im out

[uncleglen]

It all depends on where you live and how often you get out and where you go.

[????]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This is ridiculous.

>

> Im out

Why is it ridiculous? Where? Or you just not upto a reasonable debate as per,.....

[Otta]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It all depends on where you live and how often you

> get out and where you go.

What he said.

[Otta]

That is to say that nation wide things like immigration aren't so big a deal as some people make out, but in certain areas it is a big issue, and we can't just dismiss it out of hand as bigots talking rubbish.

And crime may be down, but the type of crime being committed and the people commiting it is a concern.

[KalamityKel]

hmmm like any article such as that can be trusted... next week they'll be a study published claiming the opposite *shrugs* no point reading cr ap like that.

[*Bob*]

I don't think it's as simple as just not being well-informed. The human brain seems wired to notice difference more than it does similarity. I've lost count of the number of visitors from outside London who've declared that Peckham MUST be mostly black.. and then refuse to believe the reality - that the figure is more like 1/3.

As others have pointed out already, general percentages - 'facts' take no account of local clustering where changes are felt the most. The school I went to had 6 Asian ethnicity kids in our year of about 100 when I went.. The figure is now closer to 70. And that's a fact.

[Jeremy]

On the face of it, it may seem ridiculous to even suggest that 30% of the population is comprised of recent immigrants. But in the example of Bob's school, faced with a rapidly changing demographic in your local community, you can kind of understand why people might think it. Or even if you live in a small town where diversity is low, but anyone different tends to be noticed.

In theory I have no problem discussing immigration, as it does impact most of us to various degrees (in both negative and positive ways). But things can get a bit messy. Especially when someone with completely odious views (previous posters spring to mind) hijacks a legimitate point as justification for their prejudice...

[david_carnell]

Spot on Jeremy.

It's hard to debate issues like immigration because positions are so entrenched on both sides. And neither like to give ground.

So whilst SJ is correct in saying that these statistics show that there isn't nearly as big a "problem" as most critics of immigration would like to suggest, ???? and *Bob* rightly point out that in localised areas there can be increased pressures on services and resources that need addressing by national and local politicians and media. But unfortunately there seems little appetite amongst either of those groups for rational debate since both are equally entrenched for different reasons in their own positions.

Interesting, this is a nettle the Labour left have failed to grasp over successive generations and it has contributed to the erosion of their white, working-class support. Quixotically, these areas are actually ones that have seen little immigration but are the most fearful of it.

I think it would be a fool who didn't recognise the huge benefits that immigrants can bring to this country and have done for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. And with every new influx the same concerns (or similar) have been raised. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't be capable of discussing the matter sensibly and without cheap jibes being thrown by either side or having to resort to factually innaccurate rhetoric.

[El Pibe]

The real issues that affect people's lives; this story is only pipped in hits by some women climbing the shard

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23261505

[woodrot]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nick-hewer-margaret-mountford-investigate-2043331

21.00 tonight bludz

[Otta]

As others have pointed out already, general

> percentages - 'facts' take no account of local

> clustering where changes are felt the most. The

> school I went to had 6 Asian ethnicity kids in our

> year of about 100 when I went.. The figure is now

> closer to 70. And that's a fact.

Just to show *bob*'s point, I think we're quite close in age (I think he's a couple of years older).

I've just looked at my class photo from my last year at St John's & St Clement's (when it was a much smaller school) 1988/89.

26 in the class

13 white

10 black

3 asian

There was another class in the year group with a similar mix.

Id ve interested to see how that compares to today actually.

[Jeremy]

Nah, I reckon Bob's well old innit.

My school was probably 95% white, so not exactly diverse. But in an ironic way it worked OK, because kids from an ethnic minority just mixed with everyone else, and nobody really thought anything of it.

[LondonMix]

Well according to the school's most recent OFSTED

45% White British

20% Black Carribean

35% Others (White but not British / Black African / Asian, etc)

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As others have pointed out already, general

> > percentages - 'facts' take no account of local

> > clustering where changes are felt the most. The

> > school I went to had 6 Asian ethnicity kids in

> our

> > year of about 100 when I went.. The figure is

> now

> > closer to 70. And that's a fact.

>

>

> Just to show *bob*'s point, I think we're quite

> close in age (I think he's a couple of years

> older).

>

> I've just looked at my class photo from my last

> year at St John's & St Clement's (when it was a

> much smaller school) 1988/89.

>

> 26 in the class

> 13 white

> 10 black

> 3 asian

>

> There was another class in the year group with a

> similar mix.

>

> Id ve interested to see how that compares to today

> actually.