Goose Green Primary in 'Special Measures'

[TarquinP]

How many of ready to stick the boot into Goose Green currently have children at the school?

Would you remove your child on the basis of Ofsted if it was contrary to you own experience?

I have had children in Grove Vale and Goose Green. It has always been the poor relation to other local schools. The development of the school since fresh start has been exceptional, Failing leadership, no way.

[bawdy-nan]

Louisa - I don't know very much about the secondary schools. I've heard good things about Kingsdale but, according to the Southwark News, its being threatened with being turned into an Academy along with the Peckham Academy, which is odd, as it is already an Academy..

Will it be an Academy Academy? What next, if it fails, an Academy Academy Academy...

As for Goose Green and the Ofsted reports. I agree that an Ofsted report doesn't give the full measure of a place but it does take the temperature and the report, which I've read, was pretty damning in the aspects I care about very strongly.

I don't know how to solve its problems, I know there has already been a tremendous effort.

[mamafeelgood]

i don't understand how GG's catchment area means that the children are any different to dog kennel hill which last time i looked had a glowing report. it certainly sounds like people have had very different experiences of the school.

at this point i could also point out that the state school i went to had teachers reportedly calling the whole set up unteachable but it pulled through. again, charter will need a percentage of children who are prepared to learn and then they will have the freedom to do so. as one teacher put it 20 years ago at parents evening, it takes just 10% to listen to make a class teachable.

we are lucky to have comprehensives that people dare to send their kids too. speak to anyone in north west london or lambeth and they feel like they have NO choice. what makes me sick is when a school like dulwich college makes a load of money by holding some over priced contemporary furniture fair which a local comp could really have done with.

and no, scandinavian second hand chairs do not need to be showcased in the ugly parts of dulwich college.

[DaveR]

"what makes me sick is when a school like dulwich college makes a load of money by holding some over priced contemporary furniture fair which a local comp could really have done with."

Some people you don't know decide to spend their money how they want - how exactly is that any of your business?

Parents will choose what they think is best for their kids - end of story. When parents desert poor schools they are both behaving rationally and sending a message to those responsible for running the school that all is not well - if their is no response, or the response is inadequate, don't shoot the messenger.

[goosemum]

Here's a view from the inside. We chose to send our children to Goose Green because it is a good school with old fashioned values and good discipline. Our children learn to live and work and play within a mixed community. They are happy and are thriving. They have no concept of how race, religion and class can divide society as they are taught to respect one another on an equal basis. You may think I am wrong, but I think that these core values are more important than reaching government targets (at least at Primary School level). If more of the 'middle class' parents who take advantage of the excellent nursery facilities had the guts to stay with the school, then academic standards would probably rise. For those who visit Goose Green on a daily basis, the OFSTED report simply does not reflect the culture of the school and the dedicated staff who work there deserve the support of the local community. If you don't believe me, go and have a look around the school for yourselves. That's what we did, and we have never regretted our decision to send our children to Goose Green.

[DaveR]

Goosemum, you made your choice - let others make theirs

[pepperkinski]

that's a tad harsh - she was just giving her opinion

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Hear, hear. It was rather heartening to see a good word said for the place and by a parent who cares.

[DaveR]

Goosemum said:

"For those who visit Goose Green on a daily basis, the OFSTED report simply does not reflect the culture of the school and the dedicated staff who work there deserve the support of the local community. If you don't believe me, go and have a look around the school for yourselves."

but also criticises 'middle class' parents who send their kids to the nursery there then send them elsewhere for school. By definition those parents will have been visiting the school and have made their own informed choice. Its a little bit tiresome that parents who make decisions on the basis of what they perceive to be best for their children are (i) assumed to be middle class (which is a pejorative term in these debates) and (ii) lambasted as being selfish. When effective action is taken to turn around failing schools, response from parents is usually pretty swift - look at the popularity of Heber School. Most parents in my experience would really like to send their child to the nearest school, as it's easy to get to and the child's friends will live close by, but to expect every parent to be a 'pioneer' is unrealisitc and to criticise that as a faling is wrong.

[Louisa]

Yes of course discipline starts at home, but I am afraid successive governments in this country have persued an agenda to create an underclass which lacks any moral fabric and is not in any way shape or form the proud working class of 50 years or less ago. This underclass does not appreciate the notion of morality or discipline and it is very naive from a schooling perspective to expect children to arrive willing and ready to learn when they have come from an impoverished and often ignorant upbringing. I am not in any way suggesting this is the case at Goose Green Primary School, but I ould like to point out that it is the school's responsibility to recognise changes in cultural behaviour and reflect this in the procedures used to discipline children and provide them with the basics tenets of learning. This is not a class issue, it is a pc approach to teaching which does not understand or act upon changes in society.

Louisa.

[bawdy-nan]

It is very interesting to hear from a parent and one who clearly believes in the school passionately. I suspect that this is exactly the kind of attitude - pride in the school community - that will really make a difference to the school.

I can understand the frustration at parents who use the nursery and then skedaddle but, having read the OFSTED report, the issues aren't around "academic results" rather behaviour and management of poor behaviour in the school. There was some mention of dull lessons and teaching that didn't drive the lessons forward but the thing that struck me most powerfully was that when the inspectors spoke to the children they described feeling afraid at school and also that if they did speak out it wouldn't make any difference and that they wouldn't be listened to.

"Some pupils complain that they do not feel safe at school because they feel intimidated by others. They report that they are either too scared to tell the teachers for fear of further reprisals or find, from past experience, that their concerns will be ignored if they do so. The management of behaviour is too variable. Rules are not consistently enforced and systems are not clearly set up. Consequently, there is too much low-level disruption, which slows the pace of learning in some lessons. When teaching is slow and unengaging it also increases the levels of pupils' disaffection and passivity. Behaviour is unsatisfactory, because of this and because too many pupils move around the school with undue care and consideration for others, they run the risk of causing accidents. This, and pupils' weak social skills, indicates that social, moral, spiritual and cultural education are inadequate. Pupils do not learn enough of the necessary social skills that will help them to relate to each other and form positive relationships. This is inhibiting their ability to play a role in the local and wider community."

I really, truly hope that GGmum is right and that this isn't the case. The description the report gives is awful and I would never consider sending my children there on the basis of that description. I can see, from GG mum's post and also from some of the report that there is much to value about the school but it is worrying that the school (from the report) appears to think it is keeping children safe very well. It certainly doesn't sound like the old fashioned discipline ggmum describes.

[Jamma]

So who to believe - Goose green mum with kids attending and years of experience of the school and what sounds like a very sensible attitude re learning equality and respect over stupid government targets, or the inspectors who visited for a few days and who are all about government targets?

Tough huh?

[taper]

I'll go with Ofsted on this one. They didn't just make it up.

[Jamma]

Erm that depends on your definition of 'just making it up' I think

[DagmarJ]

My son also goes to Goose Green Primary, just finishing reception, and we are very happy with the school so far.

Parents, governors and staff at the school were totally shocked when the Ofsted report came out (and I believe the Local Education Authority did also not expect this), it's not at all what we expected and most of us feel it is not justified. Somebody asked why the school didn't write an official reply - in Ofsted's books that wouldn't earn you any points, on the contrary, they interpret this as the school not being even aware of it's failings. So most people advise to just swallow the bitter pill and get on with putting your energy into those weak areas which were justifiably identified. The head teacher at the time did in fact write a very detailed response supplying plenty of evidence to counter some of the report statements - which were based on observations and impressions over two days -, but hardly anything was taken on board. Unfortunately he left shortly after the inspection report (totally unrelated), otherwise he might have taken this further.

Goose Green is a school with a high percentage of kids on free school meals and a high percentage of kids for whom English isn't the first language. This puts a lot of parents off who fall into the 'middle-class' bracket, which I guess is something along the lines of having some sort of further education and being financially independent and secure. Somebody in this thread said that it's only understandable if people opt for a better school if they can. Very true, but if it entails pretending to be of faith to get into a faith based school, hmmm, I think that's a bit of an iffy choice. And if the same people lament the state of our divisive society and oh, what on earth can be done about the rate of teenage pregnancies and drugs and crime, hmmm, are they really concerned about that or more about the career prospects of their offspring?

As long as my son enjoys going to school, grows up enjoying learning and being inquisitive, learns to value the diversity of people and gets the basics the primary school is supposed to teach him, I'm happy and content. Of course we will be monitoring how our child progresses and if anything goes awry, we will naturally look at options and, if necessary, take action. That, by the way, would and will apply to any school, sports club, holiday camp and whatever else he attends.

I would just like to urge anybody thinking about primary schools not to be put off by the Ofsted and come and have a look and talk to some parents and teaching staff and support the school. I know it's hard, particularly with the first child when all this educational stuff is like a complete new world, and, of course, we also looked at Ofsted reports when we had to make our choice. But if it's between moving away, pretending to be something you are not, paying for private education or giving a decent non denominational state school on your door step a go - well, you know what our choice was.

I absolutely agree with other posts in this thread, unless the system is changed it'll be nigh on impossible to bring true equality into our schools.

[James]

>>And if the same people lament the state of our divisive society and oh, what on earth can be done about the rate of teenage pregnancies and drugs and crime, hmmm, are they really concerned about that or more about the career prospects of their offspring?

Are you suggesting that parents should send their kids to crap schools in order to stop society becoming more divisive? That is ludicrous! Oh how terrible of us parents to be concerned about our offspring's career prospects! All this sneering at parents who try to get the best school for their kids as if there's something wrong with that!

It's the government who are presiding over a market in education and they are to blame. If they had any guts they would give us genuine comprehensivisation i.e. abolish all the selective schools and faith schools and ensure that all schools had mixed intakes of all abilities.

Instead they perpetuate the illusion of "choice" in education (what kind of "choice" is a choice between a failing school and one that isn't?) By encouraging a market we get increasingly entrenched social apartheid. Because, let's face it, most of these "failing schools" have a high proportion of kids on free school meals.

[Jamma]

Yes I think he/she is suggesting sending your children to a 'crap' school to stop society becoming more divided. It's the best way to go about it that's why. A school cannot be inherently 'crap', it is the product of the teachers, pupils, parents etc that use it. If the majority of kids at a school are sent there with a healthy attitude and know how to behave that school will thrive no matter their ethnic or class background or whatever.

[oggers]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that any school is "inherently crap". Jamma, for your suggestion to work parents are going to have to make a decision to potentially compromise their childs education in the hope that, in time, enough sufficiently engaged parents will do the same and standards improve.

I for one am not willing to do that, and make no apology for it.

[James]

>>if the majority of kids at a school are sent there with a healthy attitude and know how to behave that school will thrive

Um, no actually! In my experience the headteacher is crucial in defining the whole ethos of a school. Word on the street is that Goose Green suffered from a bad one. Getting more middle-class kids to go there soesn't seem to have helped.

Irrespective of this, I'm sorry Jamma, I wouldn't compromise my child's education for a political principle. Think you're in the minority there.

[DagmarJ]

I did not suggest sending your child to a 'crap' school - if you read my post you will find that I talk about 'a decent non denominational state school'.

Regarding the head teacher who has unfortunately just left - he was one of the reasons we did opt for the school. Also very happy with the current interim head we have on loan (recruitment campaign was put on hold for a bit due to the Ofsted) and we are obviously hoping that we can attract a good new permanent one. I agree, the head teacher is a crucial appointment.

[Jamma]

DagmarJ, we're on the same side. I used the word crap in inverted commas because I don't think there is such a thing as a crap school.

There are however crap parents. People who go on about 'putting their child's education first' at the expense of a better community are crap parents because they fail to realise that their child is part of that community. Drives me nuts.

[DaveR]

All the local state primary schools are 'community schools' and many familes live close enough to more than one to enable them to make a choice. So do you advise they choose the school which, when they visit, appears to be well-run and provide a good education in happy, secure and appropriately disciplined surroundings (as well as having a good OFSTED report) or the one which looks fine but has severe deficiencies identified by OFSTED and a head teacher on his/her way out the door?

Get real. There may be no inherently crap schools but there are schools that underperform, usually because of a lack of leadership. If you want to choose that school, for whatever reason, go ahead, but what anyone else does is, frankly, none of your business.

[muffintop]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "what makes me sick is when a school like dulwich

> college makes a load of money by holding some over

> priced contemporary furniture fair which a local

> comp could really have done with."

>

> Some people you don't know decide to spend their

> money how they want - how exactly is that any of

> your business?

>

> Parents will choose what they think is best for

> their kids - end of story. When parents desert

> poor schools they are both behaving rationally and

> sending a message to those responsible for running

> the school that all is not well - if their is no

> response, or the response is inadequate, don't

> shoot the messenger.

I have to agree with DaveR, where my children's future is concerned, I would be selfish, I work hard for my money, why would I bother waiting round for a school to improve,(if it had a bad report or name to begin with) put my child in the school (thereby chancing on a lottery as to whether or not he/she would get a half decent education)just for the sake of the community and for the sake of those on low or no income who don't like it? It is my perogative to give the best I can to my child's future, I would (when I eventually have some) send my child to the best school I could, and yes, even move postcodes for better schooling, because guess what, working hard and making informed decision will only help to broaden my child's horizons and if I consciously made the decision to do this in order to improve the lives of my children and give them a better chance for the future, I don't need anyone else jumping up and down screaming, its not fair! it's not fair! I've been there, done that, and decided to do something about it, i.e. got off my arse and work hard.

[muffintop]

Sorry, not for one moment suggesting everyone is unemployed, or on low income, but when did people who choose to send their children to different schools become responsible or accountable to those who don't, and are happy enough sending them to their local schools, if you are happy with your school fine, if not, then move, but don't berate people who chose to opt out, its all about choices.

[Asset]

Jamma Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DagmarJ, we're on the same side. I used the word

> crap in inverted commas because I don't think

> there is such a thing as a crap school.

> There are however crap parents. People who go on

> about 'putting their child's education first' at

> the expense of a better community are crap parents

> because they fail to realise that their child is

> part of that community. Drives me nuts.

I would say the crap parents are the ones who don't give a toss about their kids' education and don't get involved with the school or how it is run or try to make a difference.

To call parents crap because they do care is just laughable.