Cycling on the pavement

[Chick Pea]

a fish Wrote:

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> alldownhillfromhere Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Oh come on people, get a grip, stop being so

> > bloody reasonable. Pavement cyclists need to be

> > stopped, and stopped NOW.

>

> Aren't you supposed to be under a curfew?

Where's John Smith?

[alldownhillfromhere]

Chick Pea Wrote:

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> a fish Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > alldownhillfromhere Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Oh come on people, get a grip, stop being so

> > > bloody reasonable. Pavement cyclists need to

> be

> > > stopped, and stopped NOW.

> >

> > Aren't you supposed to be under a curfew?

>

> Where's John Smith?

At a guess, down the Rosendale, leering at random punters, and telling lies about me.

[Chick Pea]

alldownhillfromhere Wrote:

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> Chick Pea Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > a fish Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > alldownhillfromhere Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > Oh come on people, get a grip, stop being

> so

> > > > bloody reasonable. Pavement cyclists need

> to

> > be

> > > > stopped, and stopped NOW.

> > >

> > > Aren't you supposed to be under a curfew?

> >

> > Where's John Smith?

>

>

> At a guess, down the Rosendale, lying to random

> punters, and telling lies about me.

Is John a cyclist?

[alldownhillfromhere]

Chick Pea Wrote:

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>

> Is John a cyclist?

God no, way too fat and old.

[Chick Pea]

New pavement cycle lanes are part of the Paxton Green Roundabout improvements.

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/200431/street_improvements/2584/paxton_green_roundabout_improvements/1

Southwark are holding an open eve at Kingsdale School 17:30 - 19:30 on Thursday 03/10.

[john smith]

Chick Pea Wrote:

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> Where's John Smith?

I'm here, I finally got in after, well, a lot of nonsense. I'm afraid Ms alldownhillfromhere created a bit of a scene at the pub tonight:- anyone who was in the Rosendale at about 22:30 will agree it was really quite embarrassing.

[a fish]

Just been into town. I'm not going to risk LadyDeliah's (self)righteous wrath by telling you what I saw - it is, after all, anecdotal, and therefore not acceptable as fact - but suffice to say someone's clearly told the cyclists of London it's National Cycle Like a Fcukwit Day, and they're all taking part.

[uncleglen]

Some people cannot cycle because of a disability which may or may not be obvious, e.g. a problem with vision, or muscular weakness. People who do cycle should bear this in mind and be grateful that they can- because I am heartily sick of their holier-than-thou attitude towards others- mainly car drivers.

Also, when some people are behind a car wheel they behave as if they own the road and all caution and rational behaviour goes out the window. The only solution is for the full weight of the law to descend upon idiots on all types wheels and for cyclists to have a license plate equivalent and insurance

[henryb]

> The only solution is for the full weight of the law to

> descend upon idiots on all types wheels and for

> cyclists to have a license plate equivalent and

> insurance

Does that apply to pedestrians as well? They are at fault in the majority of collisions between cycle and pedestrians. Many of these result in cyclist being seriously injured.

> Also, when some people are behind a car wheel they behave as if they own the road and all caution and rational

> behaviour goes out the window.

It is actually the vast majority. 82% of drivers admitted to sometimes or frequently exceeding the limit

http://news.sky.com/story/719315/driving-motorists-admit-to-breaking-speeding-laws

On average on 30mph road half the cars will be speeding.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/free-flow-vehicle-speeds-in-great-britain-2011

This widespread criminality amongst car drivers results in hundreds of deaths every year and thousands of life changing serous injuries - yet it is mostly ignored by the police and politicians.

I take all the drivers on this thread are one ones from the tiny minority who never speed and manage to get about without breaking the law?

[LadyDeliah]

So DJKQ, sorry, I mean A Fish, are you going to make every thread I post on a chance to launch personal attacks on me, of the sort you were previously famed for? Or do you think it worth changing your MO now you have a new username?

[Voyageur]

God.... this thread really is groundhog day isn't it. Start a thread about bad motorists Henry and I will happily wade in and agree with you. This is a thread about a minority of cyclists who cycle dangerously on pavements. I knyw I am repeating myself but I have never been hit by a car - I have been ridden into by aggressive and idiotic pavement cyclists though, on more than one occasion.

[LadyDeliah]

And I've never been hit by a cyclist but I have been hit by a car, bus and truck door.

[LadyDeliah]

Plus a van actually. About 3 weeks ago. Hit my hand while I was cycling when he squeezed through a gap that was too small.

[Voyageur]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> Plus a van actually. About 3 weeks ago. Hit my

> hand while I was cycling when he squeezed through

> a gap that was too small.

Get that thread going then LadyD!

[LadyDeliah]

Just responding to your post. You said you'd been hit by a bike but not a car and I have had the opposite experience. How's that not relevant?

In any case, any discussion about pavement cycling has to examine the safety of cycling on the road and motorist behaviour if any sensible solution is to be found.

What's the point in telling cyclists they have to cycle in the road if they feel their lives are in danger? Tell them all you like, fine them, whatever, but until the roads are safe for cyclists or until there is adequate cycle infrastructure there will always be people cycling on the pavement. Simple.

Instead of circular arguments and putting all the blame on cyclists, if you want real change in cyclists' behaviour, tackle the real menace, dangerous drivers who break the law as a matter of course, killing and maiming thousands every year.

[Voyageur]

Boris is doing what he can for cyclists, but most London roads aren't built to accommodate cyclists and other vehicles at their current levels. We are where we are and the law is the law. If a cyclist doesn't feel safe on the roads on a bicycle they should either get another vehicle, jump on public transport or start walking. If a cyclist cycles towards me on a pavement and expects me to leap out of the way they will get an earful at best - if I had my way they would have the bike removed and crushed to he size of a match-box. And a nice hefty fine.

Waits for the ground-hog thread to crawl along regardless.....

[LadyDeliah]

Well Voyager, you've lost my vote when you stand for Mayor.

[a fish]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> So DJKQ, sorry, I mean A Fish, are you going to

> make every thread I post on a chance to launch

> personal attacks on me, of the sort you were

> previously famed for? Or do you think it worth

> changing your MO now you have a new username?

Who?

[LadyDeliah]

Voyageur Wrote:

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> Boris is doing what he can for cyclists, but most

> London roads aren't built to accommodate cyclists

> and other vehicles at their current levels.

This has been said this a few times? Where is the evidence that London's roads can't accommodate cyclists? Who says so? If we are smart enough to design phones that can do everything huge computers used to do, why are we not smart enough to design planned, integrated transport infrastructure that gives equal access to all travellers?

I'm not asking for more than my fair share. I'm asking for a proportionate amount of space to travel safely around my city/country by bike, along with hundreds of thousands of British cyclists. Why is that such an outlandish request?

We are unwelcome targets on the roads and hated on the pavements. Where do you suggest we go?

Oh and in relation to 'The Law', it's not just politicians who make law, Judges also make law and have done for hundreds of years before Parliament existed. I quoted a case somewhere on one of these never ending tirades against cyclists, where the Judge said that just because cycling on the pavement is not allowed, the Judge condoned it becsuse he said the guy had a duty to protect his own life. That is law.

Also the policy statement by Paul Boeteng and the guidance to PCSO's saying they shouldnt normally give fixed prnalty notices if the person cycling on the pavement is doung so slowly and not putting anyone in danger, that is also relevant. The government (local and central) can be found to be acting unlawfully, if they dont follow their published policy.

So the issue of whether cycling on the pavement is unlawful or not is unclear and open to challenge. I imagine that fairly soon there will be a change in the law, either via Parliament or via the courts. If I get a penalty notice for cycling on the pavement carefully, whilst giving way to pedestrians, in order to avoid a very dangerous stretch of road, I will fight it as far as I can through the courts in an attempt to elicit a change in the law. I know others who feel as strongly about this as I do, who plan to do the same thing.

There needs to be a reassessment of different users' access to our roads and public spaces because our modes of transport have changed dramatically since the 1800's when the law governing cycling on pavements came into force.

[henryb]

Voyageur Wrote:

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> God.... this thread really is groundhog day isn't

> it. Start a thread about bad motorists Henry and I

> will happily wade in and agree with you. This is a

> thread about a minority of cyclists who cycle

> dangerously on pavements.

It is actually about a collision that happened between a cyclist and motorist on the pavement. i.e. the car driver was also on the pavement and was not driving with due care and attention.

> I knyw I am repeating myself but I have never been hit by a car - I have been ridden into by aggressive and idiotic

> pavement cyclists though, on more than one occasion.

Ok well I am sorry for you. My experience is very different, I see reckless dangerous drivers every single day - however in 20 years in London I never seen a "Lycra Lout" bombing down the pavement barging people out the way spitting and swearing at pedestrians. If someone would tell me where to see one that would be great because I am starting to feel I am missing out.

Until you come up with some evidence that cyclists are anywhere near the same level of road safety problem as reckless dangerous drivers then it is just talk.

[a fish]

henryb Wrote:

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> however in 20 years in London I never

> seen a "Lycra Lout" bombing down the pavement

> barging people out the way spitting and swearing

> at pedestrians. If someone would tell me where to

> see one that would be great because I am starting

> to feel I am missing out.

As I've said before, try Farringdon/Clerkenwell.

[LadyDeliah]

Take a picture on your phone for us a fish, you seem to be able to hunt these elusive Lycra lout pavement cyclists more easily than anyone else. Or even a video, that would be cool.

Evidence for all us non-believers that they not only wear Lycra and cycle on pavements dashing through pedestrians, but they also verbally abuse them.

Yes, I'm sure if you see them every day, you could get something tasty for us by this evening.

[Jonathan62]

LadyD - the legality, or otherwise of cycling on the pavement is not moot. It is illegal. The judgement you cited on another thread was that a cyclists duty to protecting themselves at a moment of life threatening danger superseded their legal responsibility to not cycle on the pavement.

However, since I've not personally heard a judge say that then shouldn't your point by anecdotal?

In any case here's some more anecdotal evidence:

0745 cyclist wearing a white helmet with stars jumps the lights at the corner of Peckham Rye and East Dulwich Road, illegally turning right and riding across the pavement as they do.

0749 cyclist wearing a black hoodie and big earphones cycles on the pavement along Peckham Rye.

0751 cyclist wearing a helmet and fluorescent waistcoat comes out of a house on Peckham Rye, gets on their bike and cycles on the pavement, past the bus stop.

In none of these situations was was the traffic bad or life threatening.

All this in a walk from Barry Road to Peckham Rye station.

[a fish]

D'you know LadyDeliah, if I'd had my mobile in my hand, rather than my pocket, I could have got two shots of pavement cycling, one quite dangerous (West Smithfield), the other not too bad, (St John St). Better luck next time, eh?

[Penguin68]

If we are not to separate cyclists and pedestrians, maybe we shouldn't separate cylists, pedestrians, cars, buses or anything. Certainly the need for cyclist only bits of the road would seem otiose.

This is not just being awkward - there have been significant studies looking at areas where there are no defined areas for any class of road user - instead all road users must share the same space and (clearly) do so very carefully, with full acknowledgement of both the risks they pose and the risks they are under.

With no guaranteed place of safety (as many pedestrians, clearly foolishly, consider pavements, with the LadyD tendancy on the increase) all road users must exercise caution - such multi-use zones have proved perfectly useable - although to extend them throughout ED on all roads may be difficult - but making all high 'traffic' areas (such as LL) multi-use might be interesting. Obviously through speeds might be reduced (not such a bad thing) but all the crossings could be abandoned - after all, what purpose would they serve?