why having kids is the best thing ever

[shoshntosh]

sean

i am one of those people who genuinely don't "get" why someone wouldn't want to have children. and yet... i still don't judge people who don't, nor do i think they should, nor do i think they secretly wish they had. i just really cannot get my head around what that would feel like. because i cannot imagine people accepting that this is all there is... as in, they die and that's it. gone. no vapour trail. not even a palimpsist left to mark their having been here. i actually think it's quite noble really, to NOT want children. i honestly cannot imagine that. i cannot imagine being 50, 60, etc etc and having no... um, how do i put this... no continuation of myself beyond myself. does that make ANY sense? i suppose i secretly (til now anyway -- doh) might think that sometimes people make decisions out of courage, and other times out of cowardice (and other times it's just contraception failure ;-)) and i am suspicious that perhaps this is one decision that sometimes comes from the less positive of those two places. then again, i suppose having them comes from that place too... as if they will keep us alive somehow.

maybe the thing i don't *get* is why people are so determined to be right. like cassius said. everyone is different and some people want kids and are lucky enough to have them and others don't want them and are wise enough not to have them. it's when these two things get mixed up that problems start. but there is no right or wrong answer.

so maybe i shouldn't have started the thread??!!! (though it's really been my only successful one. well... successful in one measure of the word...:)))

is it too late to change it to: why having kids CAN be the best thing ever (for some people but certainly not for others)??

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Quite right and fair. (although I do want kids, and piss-ups ).

Not mutually exclusive - just requires a little organisation.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Indeed Shosh - and when Cassius said it I agreed with her too. It's certainly not an area where there is a right or wrong.. just right or wrong for the individual. Most of the parents on here are excellent examples of what could be - but then I'm not "not wanting" kids because I fear my social life wiil change, or expense or any of that. But I digress...

Oh that? I've reconciled myself with that years ago..

[shoshntosh]

seriously?

how?

[SeanMacGabhann]

ah that'll be another thread...

[indiepanda]

Cassius Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Some people just simply cannot accept that others

> are different to them - not wrong just different.

> This is percieved as being a criticism of them and

> their choice so they go on the attack.

>

> Some of my friends are parents, some are child

> free - all have lives that they are happy with.

> Why can't people accept that we are simply not all

> the same. I like my friends' children (in very

> small doeses), they have times when they wish they

> didn't have kids and had our freedom. We respect

> each others lifestyles and are not so insecure

> that we see differences as being rights and

> wrongs.

Well said. If only all people with children thought the same as your friends. It's the minority that talk as if those of us who choose not to have children are either a) going to regret it or b) very selfish that drive me mad. Even some of my friends have told me more than once they think I would make a good mother, despite knowing I don't want kids and even if I did I am single so it's somewhat irrelevant! I may yet change my mind - perhaps if I wasn't single and managed to land a reliable boyfriend for once, but I want it to be my decision not my friends. Doing it to keep them happy really would be a bad reason!

[SteveT]

indiepanda wrote:-Doing it to keep them happy really would be a bad reason

I agree, you have to do it for your own screwed up selfish reasons like the rest of us indiepanda, otherwise you are being treated just like a common snow leopard.

[capt_birdseye]

I'm mystified as to why people should be angry about being thought of as selfish with regards to wanting/not wanting kids.

You are selfish whether you want children or not because the decision is entirely about you and not about the people you are (not)bringing into the world. Being selfish shouldn't automatically be seen as something that is bad.

[Keef]

Infact, not having kids could be seen as going against the "selfish gene". Now there's an irony!

[Moos]

........aaaand we're back to

Doesnt anyone think there are ecological and ethical reasons for not bringing more humans into the planet, particularly into a high consuming country like ours, when we are 7 billion people over the sustainable population mark as it stands...just because it makes us feel better and adds to our already incredibly priveleged existence, doesn't to me seem good enough..

[Asset]

Personally I think all the people who say get called 'selfish' etc and given a hard time by friends for not wanting children, have got the wrong friends. I would never presume to say that sort of judgemental thing to the people I call my friends. I may however have a discussion with them about the whys and wherefores of their decision.

I cannot really believe that people do say things like that, why should they care whether you do or don't have children?

You don't think maybe there is a possibility of persons being on the defensive and reading inferences that are not really there into the comments?

[VeryBerryCherry]

Asset,

Yeah it is rather strange how people react but I have seen both sides of it and I have to say that it surprised me how people behave when you say, "no, I'm not planning on having kids."

When I was younger I did want children and I had a close friend who didn't. She always moaned about how horrible some people were to her when this ever came up in conversation. Personally, I always thought that she did "protest too much" about this. But she would say how people felt that had the right to comment, criticise or condescend her with "don't worry, you're young and you will change your mind!" I never thought it was that bad because inwardly I thought the same - one day she would chnage her mind.

However, years later the tables have turned and I have experienced the some of the very things she used to complain about. I don't think people often realise how demeaning their comments are, as most times it is said with the best intentions in the world. But my friend, I, or anyone not wanting kids would never dream to turn around and say, "so why do WANT to have kids? Don't worry, you'll change your mind!" blah blah blah...

I think that's the point most child -less/free (whatever!?!) feel. They have probalby really considered that decision or had the misfortune of fate making that decision for them. Either way, it can be rather insensitive when people make those comments.

btw, all of that wasn't aimed at your post... i got carried away... :-$

[SeanMacGabhann]

It might be true about having the wrong friends Asset but not only am I asked that all the time, with the words "don't be selfish" verbatim... "give her what she wants" from someone else (stop it at the back!), and a host of others ..... and now.... as well as those, I'm also "defensive"!

I can't win!

[Asset]

i WAS WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO JUMP ON ME FOR THAT COMMENT. i'M NOT ATTACKING, JUST BEING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE.

SCUSE CAPS - NOT SHOUTING

[Cassius]

Asset - I have not had 'friends' accuse me of selfishness for not wanting children, but take some of the comments on this thread and others about anyone who dares say that maybe, just maybe it would be nice to have a quiet pint/meal without being disturbed by wayward children for example.

I certainly know of women who have been given a hard time by their parents for not giving them grandchildren.

[Asset]

Cripes, I think most people with kids appreciate the desire for a quite meal once in a while - and dare I say it, possibly much more than people without kids who get to have a quiet meal whenever they please.

I think the grandparent thing is different, I can understand sadness at not getting grandchildren, however that is very different from having a go at a friend for not reproducing

[pk]

Asset Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Cripes, I think most people with kids appreciate

> the desire for a quite meal once in a while - and

> dare I say it, possibly much more than people

> without kids who get to have a quiet meal whenever

> they please.

>

>

yeah but can't have a quiet meal whenever they please, remember everywhere is full of wayward children always

[Asset]

Just to continue, Cassius I think you mistake people with kids getting pissed off about being told they ought not to be in public places with their kids after 6pm, with people who are saying you are selfish for not wanting kids. Frankly some of the vitriol that is poured on those that choose to go to restaurants or bars with offspring is disturbing to say the least.

[VeryBerryCherry]

Yeah the "grandparent" issue IS a toughy.

I know Mother VBC won't say it. But my 'rentals have lived on the same terrace block with the same families for nearly 30 years, where there are three other familes with daughters... Well, I'm the last one and one of them, my best friend had a little boy only a few months ago. Now I know she won't say it out loud (for fear of a beating!(JOKE!)) but I can see "the look" that accompanies comments like, "Oh, i'm practically a grandma now!".

She can stay "practically a grandma" until my 19 yr old brother or sister decide to cough up some sprogs.

But being the elder daughter always gets those kind of comments. You're the first in line, especially when it comes to cousins and the extended family. She also just happened to drop into the conversation the other day, that my 17 year old cousin that I babysat on a few occasions is now expecting a baby of her own. She wasn't tooo impressed that she had got pregnant at 17, but there was still a hint of that "pregnant pause..." (pun intended)

[Moos]

Just to continue, Cassius I think you mistake people with kids getting pissed off about being told they ought not to be in public places with their kids after 6pm, with people who are saying you are selfish for not wanting kids. Frankly some of the vitriol that is poured on those that choose to go to restaurants or bars with offspring is disturbing to say the least.

I really agree with this. The selfishness and why-can't-everyone-live-their-lives-more-like-me-ishness of recent threads on the topic absolutely blew me away. One person even suggested people with children shouldn't be allowed to take them to the supermarket.

[Brendan]

Madness! Do they expect parents to carry their own shopping bags?

[Moos]

Or steal their own sweets?

[Cassius]

(tu)

[SteveT]

Quite right Brendan

I always believed kids were there for the benefit of us adults and should be taught

to wait on us hand and foot,

and until they are able to make a cooked breakfast and carry it to my bedroom with out spilling any of it,

I shall not think I have made it as a successful father.

They are not considered adult though, until they can live on what they can earn, without getting into debt.

[Asset]

That makes probably 80% of the population still children then.