Incident Somerfields (Lounged)

[candj]

And I wasn't? :]

[rob]

I agree with Louisa - how do we know the guy wasn't the same dangerous pervert who was taking "waist-high" photos of children in Peckham Rye? Or, and this might even be worse, maybe he was from an al qaeda cell intent on blowing up the area before the Adventure Bar can wreak even more drink-soaked, godless insanity on Lordship Lane?

I say, hang him. Only language etcetc

[James]

I think everyone's being a bit hard on Louisa. Perhaps she went a bit far (as she often does) but I do think it's depressing how people seem to take such self-righteous pleasure in finding a person in authority who's abusing it. Never mind the criminal (we feel guilty about condemning him/her). Focus on the one in authority. It's a distinctly middle-class indulgence. We do it and feel oh so politically correct and smug. Like we're defending the little guy.

Unfortunately the overall effect is to give the impression that the security guard is somehow worse than the shoplifter. This is dangerous. I believe it's undermining some people's sense of personal responibility for their actions.

Recently my partner was a victim of assault by a person known to the police. We had to take it to court, and we have done everything by the book. The justice system as a whole has been utterly, utterly HOPELESS so far. There is so much emphasis on protecting his rights and giving him a fair hearing that the case has virtually collapsed. This is despite the fact that we have an independent witness! The perpetrator must be laughing his head off.

I'm sorry but the thought of some nasty thug like him getting some rough justice at the hands of a security guard is, in my opinion, a good thing!

Incidentally, I am not some rightwing reactionary who wants hanging brought back. I just down't want to live in a society that, when confronted with criminals, turns a blind eye and starts wringing its hands out of some weird misplaced sense of guilt.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Asset Wrote:

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> It's alright, don't apologise candj, I was being

> facetious.

.....????...I'm certain candj was,as well.She is,surely,jokingly adding to the fun by,obviously,saying "tongue-in-cheek" "Oh! No! Thats a teensy-weensy bit tooooo much!"...She's joking One THousand Million Per Cent!

[Marmora Man]

James,

You don't want a society that, when confronted with criminals, turns a blind eye. I agree entirely.

I saw criminal behaviour - an assault on a person who was, allegedly, a shoplifter. I intervened. I certainly did not take any self righteous pleasure in finding a person in authority abusing their position. If the alleged shoplifter was truly guilty he should be punished thought the court, magistrate or jury system, not beaten up by vigilantes.

If more people took a stance on anti social behaviour of all kinds - there might, just might, be a fall in crime and a growth in the acceptance of certain "social norms" about what is right / wrong. So do ask the teenager to turn down their phone, do stand up and offer a seat to a pregnant lady, do remind people about littering.

Your own situation experiencing the terrible bureaucracy of the courts / justice system is undoubtedly horrible - but it cannot be a reason to abandon the proper due process of law - it is a reason to do more to ensure it is properly deployed by staff that have open minds, common sense and a perspective about the real balance between victim and perpetrator. Something you indicate, and I believe, to be out of kilter at present.

[Brendan]

Exactly. We can't just abandon our civilised society because certain aspects of it are not working properly at the moment. You need to address those aspects.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

James Wrote:

I do think it's depressing how people seem to take

> such self-righteous pleasure in finding a person

> in authority who's abusing it. Never mind the

> criminal (we feel guilty about condemning

> him/her). Focus on the one in authority. It's a

> distinctly middle-class indulgence. We do it and

> feel oh so politically correct and smug. Like

> we're defending the little guy.

.....THAT IS EXACTLY what irritates me to be honest!...INVARIABLY the people with these views are NOT personally affected by Crime,particularly street crime.Visited my friend in his ?1,000,000 Property.All-Jewish Neighbourhood in East Finchley last week(they buy any outstanding vacant property in his Cul-De-Sac to keep "others" out-WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!) and to hear the Liberal Views of people who will,realistically,never be personally affected is LAUGHABLE,totally surrealistic to be honest.No concept of living on major Housing Estates and personally experiencing the "end product" .Then hear the viewpoint of almost everyone with many years experience of living in an area with a high crime rate!

If you ask 95% of People in these(or formerly these) areas you would have a totally different perspective and these people EXPERIENCED living in a "relatively" unsafe/lawless area.How frustrated would these people feel if they heard the views here?

[James]

Totally agree with you MM. I am not advocating vigilante behaviour. The security guard should not have used excessive force. We all must accept the due process of the law.

What worries me is the signal that all this concern for the shoplifter sends out. He/she will walk about feeling victorious, thinking "I know my rights" and so on. Perhaps he/she will feel emboldened to do it again - maybe trying to spark a confrontation. He knows that, whilst he can always cry injustice or excessive force or whatever (and be heard!) the system must be seen to be fair. Hence it is tipped in his favour.

I wonder how those who have posted in defence of the shoplifter would feel if he stole their wallet? Or burgled their house? Would they be so concerned for his welfare?

[Mark]

In this case they were not restraining, not using reasonable force, not defending themselves, not giving a "good 'ol clip round the ear", they were punching someone in the front of the store. He may have been guilty of shoplifting, he may not have been, but it's not right that private security guards can acceptably dish out physical punishment as a form of justice.

It's scary and amusing that some people think of Somerfield's security guards as the representatives of the British justice system.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Oh this is just bollocks now

The quote from james pulled out by tony is so wrong its untrue. Massive generalisation masquerading as fact. And then tony piles in with his generalisation. It is not invariable tony ok? I have been burgled and attacked. People are using this to do the usual trotting out of phrases like politically correct and liberal when it has no meaning. No one is defending the criminals actions. No one. Why cant people like tony and louisa accept that? Why oh why etc etc

But yes. . If we cant expect those charged with upholding the law to uphold the law where does that leave us? Lets debate this but no facts and not no hobby horses please. .

[Mark]

Tony, after a full stop or comma, please put a space. Like that.

[edited once] for spelling

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Oh this is just bollocks now .

Steady Old Chap!B)

>

> The quote from james pulled out by tony is so

> wrong its untrue. Massive generalisation

> masquerading as fact. And then tony piles in with

> his generalisation. It is not invariable tony ok?

> I have been burgled and attacked. People are using

> this to do the usual trotting out of phrases like

> politically correct and liberal when it has no

> meaning. No one is defending the criminals

> actions. No one. Why cant people like tony and

> louisa accept that? Why oh why etc etc

.......I accept that Sean! 'onest Guv'nor!

Sean:There is no doubt that the possibility and likelihood of becoming innocently a victim of crime is MUCH greater in some areas than others.No guarantees,of course but I usually forget to lock my back door where I live now,for example, and never lock my car in my drive..I know from 25 years living here that,thus far,there has been no problem for me or anyone I know of(to my knowledge)..thats not to say that one can not be a victim here or in a pleasant part of our great City but the chances are much less.A guy I heard of moved into an Estate in Kidbrooke and has been burgled 5 times in under 7 months.As he replaces the items,in come the boys again.(6)...Where I used to live in Inner London now has Security Doors at the entrance and Grills on some windows by comparison.Listening to the Cognescenti from Hampstead/Highgate is always guaranteed to get my pecker up:))

[Marmora Man]

Oh this is just bollocks now

I'm beginning to regret my initial posting.

It seems to have uncovered a seam of illogical and repressive thinking that is all rather unpleasant. It was for that reason I didn't partake of the "stranger in Peckham Rye park" debate.

[snorky]

No one deserves a kicking- by the filth or by security guards, irrespective of their supposed offence

IME, Security guards have a propensity to thieve better than the average shoplifter, but with a bit more impunity

Im torn on the shoplifting issue to be honest - if someone has no other means of surviving, then I dont have a beef, but this isnt usually the case nowadays

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Mark Wrote:

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> It's a shame some people didn't get punctuation

> beaten into them as a child eh Tony? I did, in

> fact, I was beaten into a comma for 6 months.

...Beaten into a comma,eh? Very Droll!.As it happens I was very punctual,never late for anything(tu)Touche(tu)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Mark Wrote:

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> Tony, after a fullstop or comma, please put a

> space. Like that.

..Thanks for the education Mark.I never even realised that "fullstop" was one word!

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Mark! HELP! You are,obviously,a self-proclaimed expert on this Subject and yet you,the expert who has kindly,not once but twice,taken the time and trouble to correct me, spells "fullstop" like this and yet I have just read:

"A full stop or period (sometimes stop, full point, decimal point, or dot), is the punctuation mark commonly placed at the end of several different types of sentences in English and many other languages. A full stop consists of a small dot placed at the end of a line of text, such as at the end of this sentence"

Confused,Bexley.(?)

[Administrator]

Please stay on topic.

[AcedOut]

Shops have insurance policies perhaps, but shoplifters only make the goods more expensive for everyone else. So effectively they are stealing from the pockets of innocent people. Giving these people a good kicking is probably more effective than a slap on the hand by the police. Although I'm not condoning such violence (mush harsher policing should be employed in my opinion), the sad truth is, it's probably true. I'll bet that chap will think twice next time he thinks about slipping a pack of batteries down his trousers!

[seamusmac]

How many of the good people posting here can say that they have never shoplifted, even a sweetie as a kid. Nicked the apples from an orchard or grazed on grapes in the supermarket.I am not condoning crime but Snorky makes a good point and some people are just a little too quick to point the finger.

[candj]

snorky Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> Im torn on the shoplifting issue to be honest - if

> someone has no other means of surviving, then I

> dont have a beef, but this isnt usually the case

> nowadays

I once was in a grocery store in China and they had detector tags (the ones that make the alarm bells ring) on cans of baby formula. It made me sad.

Sorry administrator, you might as well put this in the lounge next to the 'Peckham Rye Furtive Camera Perv' thread.

[capt_birdseye]

By giving them a kicking you are handing them the opportunity to become a victim, an opportunity they don't deserve. If you don't give them a kicking they have to answer for their actions alone.

[Administrator]

If the original poster, Marmora Man, wishes me to lock or move this thread I will. Otherwise it will have to wait to be Lounged, or preferably it will get back on topic.

[AcedOut]

Another point is that a person is completely within the law to use reasonable force against a person that poses an immediate danger, even if they do not hit out first. If the security guard was threatened with a knife (even if not shown), then reasonable force can be used if he felt he was in danger. That doesn't necessarily mean just restraint. Of course, kicking a person whilst they are already on the floor will probably not be seen as 'reasonable force' in the courts. I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure a person is allowed to make the first 'defensive attack' under such conditions.

There is no point in discussing the specifics of this case though, since most people were not there to witness. Personally, I've been on the other end of an attack. Not by a security guard, rather a random attack in Clapham. I pressed charges and the chap was done for Criminal Assault (should have been ABH really). He was a pretty senior director in the city and I understand he lost a pretty high paid job as a result. He'll certainly find it hard to work again in such a role. Justice can be achieved if you're prepared to go through the right channels...

[AcedOut]

Two spaces would be even better. Thanks.