Incident Somerfields (Lounged)

[Louisa]

Moos, the problem with todays society is this whole culture of if's and but's. Yes there is a very remote posibility that members of staff may well accidently kill someone by using too much force, but then again what is too much force? Surely it would depend on the circumstances of the incident and then of course witnesses would be brought in to look at the specifics of the situation and take it from there. But let's not get away from the fact that if someone has taken it upon themselves to walk into your shop, house, break into car, then they should be the one who is worried for a number of reasons, firstly that the law allows discretion from people apprehending criminals, and secondly that the police and court's will not look lightly upon a person who has stolen from someone else. The whole culture of "oh the poor criminal" is just totally not right - we need to be getting away from that in my opinion.

Louisa.

[Moos]

Not disagreeing with that, and I certainly agree that 'too much force' would depend on the circumstances. If we agree that the shoplifter is in the wrong (here I'm with you!) and that it's OK to use force on a shoplifter (here I'd say it would depend on the circumstances) I don't think it's unreasonable to ask how much is OK. I'd say that a good rule of thumb is 'the minimum that is enough to restrain'. That's not because I don't believe in justice - it's because I do believe in justice: the justice of the courts and not that of ?6/hour security guards.

[Louisa]

HeidiHi, so ok we follow your route. The shoplifter may have been aggressive, should we just rely on CCTV in such circumstances and the door staff (who paid to catch criminals) should just let them run? Why have doorstaff then? Even if the criminal is not aggressive and fully co-operates with staff, they should still be made to feel small in front of others because regardless of what you say, it is a deterent. Discretion has always been used in the past, what is so different now? If we cannot trust people in a position of authority in a shop who has gone through interviewing procedures and has been given a job upon merit, then what is the point in having any job role that involves a certain amount of discretion?

Louisa.

[Marmora Man]

Louisa,

My position remains unchanged. Once apprehended there was, and is, no call for violence. Several people witnessed the event, everyone thought the actions of the staff were over the top.

I would use violence myself to defend me, my family and others from unwarranted attack. I do not see violence as an acceptable method of dispensing justice - pre or post conviction.

[Louisa]

MM, how long were you and other witnesses watching this incident for? Do you know if there is anything which could have happened to cause the security staff to take these actions when perhaps you and others were not watching? I am sorry, but it is the role of any member of security staff to defend the shop from attack by opportunistic criminals, and if they felt it was necessary, then I am not going to question their judgement and neither should you or anyone else.

Louisa.

[Moos]

I'm going to switch off from this thread now because the ever-entertaining Louisa's last point was so absurd that I can only conclude she's having fun winding us up.

[capt_birdseye]

I have just returned from a jaunt to somerfield, and remain un-molested.

[seanmlow]

Louisa - you really have some very terrible, shocking, and uneducated views!

[Louisa]

Thanks for that sean, I appreciate your brilliant, wise and fully educated evaluation of my views!

Louisa.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I would have thought the embarrassment of being caught, hands pinned behind their back and marched through the shopfloor and bundled to the back room, being searched and having the police come, question you and then being marched through the shopfloor again, this time handcuffed and being led by the police into a police car would be embarrassment enough!!

Security guards are supposed to give chase, and catch shoplifters but they are not told to hit them, or use violence.

I am very anti crime, but I am also anti violence in situations like what happened in Somerfield as I witnessed the same kind of thing in Kings, a drunk man coming into A&E, just being drunk and slurring his words and falling into things and the security guards uses their own 'discretion' and used violence on him, my mother and I and various others were so appalled, we had to tell the security guards off and complain. And don't you know? Most people are in the wrong job!!

[Louisa]

Moos, it is the position of the legal system to judge whether these members of staff overstepped the boundaries on this one, not MM or anyone else on this thread without knowing all the facts. I like the way so many people love to marginalise me and make me seem like some sort of mad woman, I find it hugely entertaining because I know that any sensible rational person would appreciate what I am saying and probably agree. The narrow minded views of so many do-gooders on here are what helps breed crime and encourage the media to defend the corner of the bad guy.

Louisa.

[LondonVillageLifer]

Hi. If any of you is accused of shoplifting (rightly or wrongly) please note that you can refuse to be searched. The shop owners then have to phone the Police who are in fact able to search you. Only the Police or Police Community Support Officers (PCSOs) have powers under law to detain you. If you have been wrongfully accused or detained (or assaulted etc) by shop owners/ staff you then have the power to press charges. Just a thought...

[Louisa]

Oh dear, you see, this is the type of attitude which is bred from an age of 'knowing your rights'. I find this more offensive than any wrong doing done to a criminal.

Louisa.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Asset Wrote:

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> I cannot believe that the incident as described by

> MM could possibly be regarded by some people as

> acceptable. I hope the guy presses charges and

> the security people at Somerfields are punished.

....VERY VERY GOOD!>:D

..btw:I assume you are talking tongue-in-cheek,obviously...I say you ARE joking,right...:(

[kristymac1]

Christ, what century are we living in?

Louisa, I'm afraid in typical fashion you are talking antagonistic nonsense. You criticise today's society for being a culture of ifs and buts and yet you pose the question in two of your posts 'If this person is guilty' - and there-in lies the problem with Somerfield staff taking it upon themselves to punish the 'offender'. Last time I checked we had a reasonably decent judicial system to deal out punishments after a person is found guilty - admittedly it doesn't always work and I would be in total favour of harsher punishments for all sorts of crimes (including shoplifting).

Comparing shoplifting to defending yourself or others against violence is utter sh*t - there is no comparison.

I hope all guilty persons in this incident are dealt with appropriately by the correct systems in place.

[jrthomas_uk]

HeidiHi Wrote:

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> So if it was a girl or a woman who was a repeated

> shoplifter, would it be ok to hit her also? after

> all, a shoplifter is a shoplifter!

Yes Yes! Now we're talking!!!!

Obviously I agree. Violence for violence's sake is not acceptable but I'm sure there's more to this story than meets the eye and I'd love to know what it is. Odds on, it's a repeat offender. Maybe it wasn't even shoplifting. Maybe he was upto no good with the manager's wife. Who knows!

Anyway, I'm not going to lose any sleep over a criminal getting a bit of a beating. Makes a pleasant change from an innoncent bystander getting stabbed/shot/mugged which is what we usually read about on this forum.

[????]

They should have cut off his hand

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Thanks for that sean, I appreciate your brilliant,

> wise and fully educated evaluation of my views!>

> Louisa.

....Its gradually sinking in that some on here are NOT "having a laugh":(....the "Education" that I have received over the last 50+ years is to see a Great Nation suffer a collective mental breakdown due to views such as this!...

Don't you realise its BECAUSE of the softly,softly approach that most criminals think we are a Nation of MUGS???...In the course of my work I've,unfortunately,had to mingle with many a "wrong 'un"...they have UTTER CONTEMPT for "Liberal" views but just wish everyone had them,I can assure you!....A typical commenr would be "I'll go in front of the Beak,look VERY Sorry,apologise to all concerned and hopefully get a much reduced sentemce so I can resume earning a DIShonest living"..and there are being entirely serious...

[Louisa]

totally agree with you jrthomas_uk, but dont try telling that to this lot or you'll be branded an extremist and locked away for life with the key thrown away!

Louisa.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

???? Wrote:

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> They should have cut off his hand

...NOW you are talking,My Boy!:)-D.....should have given him an extra "dig" just in case he was Guilty...>:D<

[LondonVillageLifer]

Not sure what's made some of you decide this person is a 'criminal'. Last time I looked it was traditional to prove criminality, or should we just all dust off the old ducking stool. There are still some stocks in Dulwich Village for any of us posters to the Forum who are not grabbing our flaming torches at the thought of some poor sod slipping a packet of streaky bacon into his overcoat.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

LondonVillageLifer Wrote:

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> "... at the thought of some poor sod

> slipping a packet of streaky bacon into his

> overcoat."

...Thats a bit rash bringing in the Bacon angle but anywayz...some other "poor sod" has chosen to provide a service for The Community,while trying to earn an HONEST living.Paying all the necessary Expenses just so the aforementioned

"poor sod" can do a spot of teefing...

[Louisa]

LondonVillageLifer, now I think you are the one who is making assumptions before knowing the facts. Making the potentially guilty party seem like a friendly rogue who just steals pack of streaky bacon. There is obviously more to this than we all know, so I reserve judgement for the courts, but I am afraid I have little faith in the legal system of this country. Recent cases including a young girl killed by a guy on a push bike who walked out of court with a fine, whilst a couple found guilty of an insurance scam (i think) were put inside for 6 years a piece! Is it any wonder people like me have sour grapes about the state of this country's legal system and why so many people feel it necessary to take the law into their own hands (rightly or wrongly). The views of certain people who like to make the criminal out to be hard done by sicken me the most, because they are the ones who are encouraging the social changes which go on to affect the legal system.

Louisa.

[Administrator]

Lounged - no longer East Dulwich specific

[macroban]

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