Racism and homophobia - where we are in 2008

[James]

Have you ever heard anyone say the following, in order to say that something is crap?

"That is so black"

"That is so spastic"

However Chris Moyles and others have said

"That is so gay"

Do you get it yet?

[*Bob*]

I draw your attention to the post I made sixteen pages ago, which illustrates exactly what you claim simply doesn't happen ever no way whatsoever. If you chose to not bother taking it in, that's up to you.

I'm in the pub with a gay friend.

Me: "I think I'm going shoot off home"

Gay friend: "Come on - have another one. Don't be so gay."

[mightyroar]

so your gay friend in the pub uses the word as a slur. I'm not going to deny that's true or say that anyone lives in a bubble. But i will say this:

Just because a gay person uses the word to mean crap doesn't mean it's OK.

They are just as wrong as Chris Moyles is. And you should tell them so.

I imagine they think that as they are not in the company of any homophobes or children then it doesnt matter.

but they are in a public place reinforcing a negative sterotype. More fool them.

[James]

If your friend chooses to have an ironic joke with you using the word gay (just as a black person might use "n*gger") that is up to them.

I don't do this and I've never heard it among my gay friends. Funny, that.

But do you not understand that a straight DJ using a word that refers to a sexual minority to mean "crap" on a mainstream show for a mainly straight audience is different? Can you really be that naive?

Why is it acceptable to slur gay people and nobody else?

[*Bob*]

Not 'a friend'. All (lots) of them. I can't think of any of my gay friends who haven't used the word as such as some point or other, in one circumstance or another. I honestly can't. And I can't think of a single mainstream gay TV-type who hasn't done the same either.

I've never said it's right or wrong or that they should or they shouldn't say it.

All I've said is that there is no black and white; that context is everything and as such your average youngster who listens to Chris Moyles and watches Alan Carr when his parents are out - might not get the subtleties.

[James]

What is so subtle and complex about asking straight people not to use the word gay to mean "sh*t" on a mainstream radio show?

I cannot think of a single mainstream gay TV personality who HAS used the word gay like this.

They might have used it in a humorous, self-deprecating way to mean "camp" or "effeminate" or "colourful" but why on earth would they use it to mean "worthless" and "rubbish" - the way Chris Moyles and countless schoolchildren do?

This makes no sense at all.

Moreover, as has been pointed out countless times, how can someone slur him/herself? If you don't accept this as a principle then you should allow everyone to insult and slur everyone else equally.

But don't tell me the word "gay" is different. That's discrimination.

[Jah Lush]

Urgh! It's not being used as a slur, between *Bob" and his gay friends, it's being used as a term of endearment amongst a coouple of friends. Jeez! Don't you get it?

[TillieTrotter]

I think James, that you have to accept that unless you are in a similar situation to yourself people just won't quite understand your angst. Likewise, self harmers, or heroin addicts etc etc etc!

It may be a shabby thing to accept but that's life I'm afraid.:(

I'm feeling sad for you that you can't make everyone understand but I think it's time to give up on it, here, for the time being before you drive yourself absolutely mental.

[DaveR]

I've resisted jumping back in to this one, but here goes...

If the worst thing you can think of to complain about is a passing fad (and it will pass) for kids and childish 'celebrities' to use the word "gay" to mean "a bit rubbish" then it kind of demonstrates how far we've come in terms of acceptance of homosexuality.

If you are complaining about actual discrimination, abuse, violence etc. everybody agrees that it is wrong and should not be tolerated.

If you are suggesting that prejudice against gay people is tolerated more readily than racial prejudice, I'd say that's a massive over-simplification, and using as your examples the aforementioned derogatory use of the word 'gay', and the lack of media coverage of a particular murder case doesn't really persuade me.

And if you start a thread entitled "racism and homophobia" and then deny that it's about 'comparative victimhood', it's going to seem a bit disingenuous...to me, at least.

[James]

Bizarre how some people are making out that I am somehow alone in my views. Lots of people have posted in support. Funny that there is a huge campaign supported by Attitude magazine fronted by a clutch of celebrities, gay and straight. So your efforts to paint me as some sort of extremist are a bit flawed. They just make you look insensitive and a bit callous.

I have given a number of key examples of homophobia that's tolerated by the mainstream media and institutions (e.g. schools) in ways that other forms of prejudice would not be. If you want to turn a blind eye to that, fine. You don't give a toss because it doesn't affect you. Fine.

As I have said many times, we would not be having this debate about racism because we are further along at dealing with it. So we'll just have to wait for the more ignorant and unenlightened among you to catch up.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

This is Deeeeppp Man!

Sorry,I know its not totally relevant to this thread but does anyone know when Christiano Ronaldo isdue back for ManU?

[Keef]

I just think the reasons people are racist are different from the reasons that people are homophobic, so it's a really tough compassisson.

[Guest]

In some ways sexism seems to be more socially and politically acceptable than racism or homophobia. At work or in a bar you frequently hear people making casually sexist comments (often women too) and getting only an appreciative laugh in response.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

James Wrote:

Have you ever heard anyone say the following, in order to say that something is crap?

"That is so spastic"

Sadly all the time! Formerly in the dark days it was "What a spas/tic" and now in everyday usage(particularly the Young,cool crew) how "retarded" or "What a retard"..(6)

[James]

But have you ever heard a prime-time broadcaster say it?

[Moos]

Seems Chris Moyles ticks all the boxes Sexist racist homophobic charmer

[James]

Great article Moos, I hope all the people who think it's ok to use "gay" as an insult read it!

[*Bob*]

What about 'Chav', James? Is that ok?

It seems your ticking a few boxes yourself over on the 'Thresher' thread. Have a peek.

[James]

Being a "chav" is not genetic. It is a particular kind of person who is materialistic, ignorant and has no respect for anyone else.

I hope you are not suggesting that all working-class people are "chavs". In that case you would be ticking the "class prejudice" box - in addition to the "casual homophobia" one.

[RosieH]

James, come on really! Pikey? Chav?

So casual bigoted abuse is acceptable as long as it's not based on genetics?

Christ on a bike

[James]

Oh for goodness sake, wake up! Read my posts again.

"Pikey" is obviously not acceptable as it is a racial slur.

But nobody has to be a "chav". You can choose not to be! But you cannot choose your ethnicity and sexuality.

[RosieH]

Sorry, I wasn't terribly coherent, but James, I'm genuinely quite staggered by your response to *Bob*'s comment. Do you know what pikey means? I don't mean to be patronising, but I would suggest that the term is casually racist, in addition to which, much has been written on the subject of Chav as a term of abuse that gives smug middle classers an alternative to the racism of yesteryear.

As someone so well informed on the discrimination that is pertinent to you, I would have expected a broader understanding.

[*Bob*]

It's an interesting one.

You know the old 'chaos theory' thing? The one where the butterfly flaps its wings and something happens on the other side of the world, seemingly unrelated?

Could it be possible that every time, say, a gay man makes a throwaway comment labelling someone or other as a chav, based on absolutely nothing whatsoever; somewhere, somebody else uses the word 'gay' to mean 'rubbish'?

[pk]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Being a "chav" is not genetic.

and is there now overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is?

i am geuinely looking to be educated here as i don't know

[SeanMacGabhann]

This thread gets more and more bizarre. Judged on the last 2 posts alone, Rosie and James appear to be at cross-purposes and seem to me to be in agreement that the term "pikey" being of Romany origin has racist connotations (and we have been here before Lord knows)

Yet, if you read James' comment on the Threshers thread he makes no such distinction. tsk tsk young man. I shall let you dig yourself out of that hole

And yet (again) I think for the most part, people are arguing with James and mostly being correct - BUT missing the point. Pedantic scores are being achieved to no great point.

Do people think gay people are being, not just discriminated against - not just in some workplaces, but on the streets and in violent attacks BECAUSE they are gay (versus your random street violence) ? yes or no?

If YES then you would be hard pressed to come up with many other "groups" apart from racial minorities which suffer the same fate. I'm not trying to equate the two groups (and their subdivisions) but there are similarities You can say all you like about your gay friends using similar language, but to say it's the same misses the point. To say you feel uncomfortable with the idea of gay sex misses the point. The whole "we're here we're queer" aspect of Pride etc is an over-reaction to hundreds of years of "better keep quiet lest we end up in jail or buried under lime". We have reached a point where in some parts of the UK you can bang on about it (and my word do they) but it should be obvious to anyone why this might be. Not that many of us have grown up in a culture of fear and shame and disapproval that the average small town/wrong part of town gay person does. And what Moyles and co do is legitamise school-ground behaviour

have we learnt NOTHING from Billy Elliot?? ;-)

If the answer is NO then clearly you have never been chased down a street by 5 "queer-bashers" - doesn't half give insight