Elections - Get out and keep UKIP/BNP out

[Parkdrive]

PokerTime Wrote:

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> How is people discussing political parties in a

> public forum on an election day doing that to you

> Parkdrive?

And how many related threads do we need to cover that one issue?

[Otta]

Aaaaaaanyway.

I wish people would stop putting UKIP and BNP in the same group.

BNP and the EDL are loathsome vile racist bigots, and I would happily call anyone that votes for them a scumbag (well worse than that, but this is a family forum).

UKIP have some elements of that nastiness in their ranks, that is obvious from some of the embarrassing things that they've tried to distance themselves from (the recent Lenny Henry thing was a classic, the irony of telling someone from Dudley to go and live in a "black country" made me laugh).

BUT

Voting for UKIP does not make you a scumbag like voting BNP/EDL does. A lot of people in this country have gone out and voted for them, which highlights that their central issue of Europe is one that people feel strongly about. Okay, so it's completely unclear what they think about anything else, but that's not really the point, I don't think anyone actually expects them to win real power, they are voting for the issue of Europe, end of.

Basically it just means that the major parties need to try harder. I see the likes of my dad in the pub listening to a load of blokes spouting the usual anti Europe bull, and it wouldn't surprise me if he at least considered voting for them based on that. Lots of people are sheep*, and UKIP are doing a bloody good job at shephearding them through soundbites and (barely credible) headlines.

* I'm not saying everyone that voted UKIP is a mindless sheep, but a lot of them will have been quite frankly.

[PokerTime]

Also, turnout seems to be around the 38% mark. So some 60% chose not to vote (for whatever reason). That I think says more about how little support all the parties really have.

[JohnL]

UKIP are just a protest vote - they won't exactly be going back to

there constituencies and preparing for government. I prefer to protest

by not bothering - and I think I'm in the majority. If turnout fell to

single figures -then the system would have to change.....

....or maybe give me a 'none of the above' tick box.

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> PokerTime Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > We have an economy and policies that have shut

> > down upward social mobility and ordinary

> working

> > families in ordinary areas are feeling it. They

> > are working harder with less to show for it and

> > their children are really struggling to find

> jobs.

> > When you have a political elite, who are

> > disconnected from that, and the wake of a

> > financial distaster like the banking crisis,

> where

> > the culprits haven't suffered and it seems like

> > business as usual to many, defection to parties

> > like UKIP is what happens. Farage is as elitist

> as

> > the rest of them, but he does a better job of

> > playing the common man than Cameron, Clegg and

> > Miliband.

>

>

> Yep, best vote in an ex stockbroker who wants

> further deregulation, fewer employment protection,

> an even smaller state and considerably less

> redistribution. That'll help those who are

> struggling eh?

[Loz]

That's really the point, Otta. The almost dog-whistle tactic of trying to brand UKIP a "racist, xenophobic, homophobic" has backfired spectacularly, as we can see.

The analysis of UKIP support from the pollsters last night was interesting. The in/out of Europe question seems to be low on their concerns, yet that is issue all the main parties are concerned about. For the number one concern - immigration - there seems to be a steadfast denial to debate. Instead, there has been the silly response to shout 'racist' at UKIP supports.

As I said before, I am an immigrant and so can see the fantastic positive immigration brings to the UK (*cough*), but if we don't have this debate soon, this feeling is going to spin out of control and some of the "darker" forces will start to make the most of it.

The two other interesting points to come out of last night were (1) that one of the other reasons UKIP did well was that Farage was seen as "human", as opposed to the carefully controlled messages of the main parties. Farage's Boris-like stumbling from one PR-disaster to another was actually a little endearing to the electorate.

Secondly, Labour's failure to make any headway means it looks like another hung parliament next year. Though Labour will be the biggest party in the commons.

My prediction for the future: they will separate Euro elections from any other election. The Euro effect on last nights council elections was pretty obvious.

[PokerTime]

That's a pretty good analysis Loz. Makes a lot of sense to me.

[grabot]

Loz:

"My prediction for the future: they will separate Euro elections from any other election. The Euro effect on last nights council elections was pretty obvious."

Yes, I hope so. Am I alone in feeling that local councillors have been let down by their European Parliament counterparts in this election? I can't recall any contact from any candidates for European Parliament, but at the same time I have had some interesting discussions and received some interesting information from council candidates.

[El Pibe]

ok, it's a pic soundbite, but it neatly illustrates the point about Europe.

UKIP simply want to take britain out of europe full stop, they don't care about Britain's interests or what's best for britain, it's just gut nationalist politics pure and simple.

Europe does actually change, it's very easy to achieve things and make differences within a supra national forum which has at its very heart the desire for cooperation and progress between nations.

Farage could have done something, but would rather use it as yet another stick to bash the EU with (whilst claiming expenses for his absenteeism)

 

[????]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> ok, it's a pic soundbite, but it neatly

> illustrates the point about Europe.

>

> UKIP simply want to take britain out of europe

> full stop, they don't care about Britain's

> interests or what's best for britain, it's just

> gut nationalist politics pure and simple.

>

> Europe does actually change, it's very easy to

> achieve things and make differences within a supra

> national forum which has at its very heart the

> desire for cooperation and progress between

> nations.

>

> Farage could have done something, but would rather

> use it as yet another stick to bash the EU with

> (whilst claiming expenses for his absenteeism)

>

>

And those are the sort of arguments that should have been used, rather than the 'racist scumbags' tacticts that social media has been awash with for eons now...

...as I've said before many people on the left's delusional belief in their moral superiority on practically all issues (not just immigration/Europe) which somehow makes shreiking 'bigot/fascist/Capitalist pig/Earth Raper/Climate Change denier' etc etc to ANYONE who has a differing view to the 'party line' is counterproductive, and, er, actually a bit 'facsist'

Please note I said some not all

Edited to add Not all

[Otta]

I may have to share that on on FB.

[MrBen]

Whatever your view...if you're disillusioned with the main three parties, UKIP is about the best protest vote you could make. The panicky left/centralist fear that they'll become any kind of meaningful force is massively misplaced. If anything they'll help the Labour cause next year.

Quids point on an earlier thread was that it should surely be possible to have a rational conversation / analysis on the impact of immigration without the heat, emotion and racism stuff. From what I can see UKIP have tried to do that and I've never really equated them close to BNP's positioning. Despite the odd nutter in the ranks. But you cant really say that without getting shot down - especially on here.

Anyways..I voted Greens last night and didn't notice the ethnicity or otherwise of the polling station team.

[MrBen]

spooily timed x post with ????

[Otta]

I think you're right Quids. I share things on FB, but only the ones that make me laugh. Even I can see that just saying "well then you're a racist" isn't really going to win any arguments.

[????]

the Foreigner post was very good tho Otta!

[*Bob*]

Over the last few months I feel like I've been living in a parallel universe where I see Farage everywhere. Sometimes I open the curtains in the morning and half expect him to be peering in; or see his face popping around the u-bend when I go for a piss.

UKIP is what you get when most of the other players stand midfield and leave the wings wide open.

Personally I think their net effect will be to do politics a favour.

[El Pibe]

ha ha ha!!!

"Asked to explain the party's relatively poor performance in London on Radio 4, [party spokesperson Suzanne] Evans said they had difficulty appealing to the "educated, cultured and young.""

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-blames-london-election-performance-on-difficulty-appealing-to-the-educated-and-cultured-9423200.html

[Otta]

Yeah my missus posted that one earlier today, made me chuckle.

[????]

or this....

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/voters-do-walk-of-shame-2014052386883

[holloway]

Cameron must be sh***ing himself about the election next year. think labour are a shoe in...

[Loz]

Why? This is the point in the election cycle where the opposition should be raking in the gains, yet Labour last night made minimal gains at best. Most oppositions need to have a poll lead of about 10% at this point to win, and Labour are way under that.

As I said before, all signs at the moment point to a hung parliament, though Labour will be have the most seats.

[Loz]

Mind you, one thing in Labour's favour is Arsenal winning the FA Cup!

If the FA Cup holders at the time of the election are a team who traditionally wear shirts in the "Conservative" colours of blue or white, the Conservatives win most seats at the election. On the other hand, if they play in "Labour" colours, red and/or yellow, Labour wins. This has only failed twice since 1950.

But again, this is only 'most seats' and a Labour minority government or coalition would still follow the trend.

[BrandNewGuy]

Labour are still a long way from power. Odds are another hung parliament with post-election horse trading deciding the occupant of No. 10.

[DaveR]

"A lot of people in this country have gone out and voted for them, which highlights that their central issue of Europe is one that people feel strongly about. Okay, so it's completely unclear what they think about anything else, but that's not really the point, I don't think anyone actually expects them to win real power, they are voting for the issue of Europe, end of."

As Loz said, when UKIP voters are asked what they think is important, Europe usually comes way down the list. UKIP have put the EU forward as a proxy for all the ills of the modern world, and invited a protest vote, which they have duly got. I don't think all UKIP candidates or voters are racist, but I admit to struggling with stupid. It doesn't take much critical judgment to work out that UKIP don't have any credible policies and have a pretty high nutter count amongst both candidates and supporters, so voting for them seems kind of stupid to me.

[????]

holloway Wrote:

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> Cameron must be sh***ing himself about the

> election next year. think labour are a shoe in...

Don't see this. Conservatives campaign will roughly be Vote UKIP get Milliband...many will come back.

Hung parliament.

If i had to pick a winner I'd put the tories as marginal favourites....the bookies don't though.

PS I had a bet on this two years ago when they were big outsiders....

[LadyDeliah]

Labour/LD/Green coalition government next I think.