Palestinian PR

[Otta]

"but you honestly think that means we should just say nothing about it at all?"

No that's not what I think.

Unsurprisingly DaveR has put it much better than I've managed.

"I haven't posted recently because there is no debate here - just disagreement, with one side endlessly congratulating itself on how clearly right it is and getting 9mock) indignant about stuff."

That's basically what I was trying to say.

[StraferJack]

But given Israels's pretty-sound defences - why not use that to hold-back?

If Hamas continue to lob rockets, then fatalities aren't really going to rise, but the world can just look at one country firing on another and the moral high-ground holds and Hamas have no place to hide

there then remains all of the point DC raises - but surely easier to discuss them without hundreds and hundreds of civilians dying for no reason.

[StraferJack]

"side endlessly congratulating itself on how clearly right it is and getting 9mock) indignant about stuff." "

that is gross misrepresentation as well - this mock-indignace. Who exactly are you to call what's happening, and reaction to it "mock"?

i see no self-congratulation either

But you can just throw these accusations around and then claim the reason you aren't engaging is a "lack of debate"???

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If Hamas continue to lob rockets, then fatalities

> aren't really going to rise, but the world can

> just look at one country firing on another and the

> moral high-ground holds and Hamas have no place to

> hide

This is undoubtedly right, but seriously how long should Isael grin and bare it for. These rockets are not like annoying pebbles being thrown at your window.

Israel could stop retaliating.

Then the whole world could condemn Hamas for firing rockets.

Then Hamas say "like we care what the whole word thinks"

Then they continue to fire rockets.

What do Israel do then?

[StraferJack]

Do you have any idea why Hamas are firing rockets? I know quids says because they want the state wiped of the face of the earth forever but lots of lunatics say things that don't amount to much

DIFFERENT SITUATION I KNOW - but IRA were never ever going to surrender until a 32 county Ireland right?- but guess what? Dialogue was open and ongoing and brought about a more peaceful situation

So for now, let's put aside that particular claim and let's look at what has been happening to Palestine

http://images.alarabiya.net/israel-palestine_map_19225_2469.jpg

At what point to you think Israel will stop expanding? Rockets or no rockets?

[vgrant]

we have a self perpetuating siege mentality on both sides - it feeds on itself and the cycle continues. It is in Israels & the Palestinian political class interests to keep this going, if not explicitly, then implicitly ,however much this may rankle.Everyone wins, except those who are getting slaughtered on both sides.

not until the heads of this awful beast are removed will anything significant happen that could bring stability to the region.

[david_carnell]

Just to note that Iron Dome destroys over 90% of the rockets fired by Hamas. They do no damage at all. And looking at the casualty count that continues to be borne out.

Israel's air-strikes on the other hand....

[????]

Gaza Strip and the West Bank was a mistake a typo druiven by trying to post quickly on the way to work before idiots started branding me as some kond of de fcato child murdere - sighs. Is that the best you've got? ooh a mistake.

Personally I'd say that 90% of social media activity on *this* is driven by people just trying to emphasise their hip right one-ness rather than any proper thinking/seeking of a solution. That's why i Ivreasingly despair of social media - who marched on Saturday by the way?

[StraferJack]

"Just to note that Iron Dome destroys over 90% of the rockets fired by Hamas. They do no damage at all. And looking at the casualty count that continues to be borne out.

Israel's air-strikes on the other hand...."

which feeds into my suggestion a few posts back

I'll be interested when it all comes out just how extensive the Hamas tunnels are as well

[vgrant]

the rockets value are in propaganda, not destruction.

read yer Marighella from '69

[vgrant]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Just to note that Iron Dome destroys over 90% of

> the rockets fired by Hamas. They do no damage at

> all. And looking at the casualty count that

> continues to be borne out.

>

> Israel's air-strikes on the other hand...."

>

> which feeds into my suggestion a few posts back

>

> I'll be interested when it all comes out just how

> extensive the Hamas tunnels are as well

I expect they will be as complex and devious as Bin Ladens Tora Bora lair was supposed to be

[david_carnell]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Gaza Strip and the West Bank was a mistake a typo

> druiven by trying to post quickly on the way to

> work before idiots started branding me as some

> kond of de fcato child murdere - sighs. Is that

> the best you've got? ooh a mistake.

>

Wow. Yeah. That's really happened. IN YOUR OWN HEAD.

Seriously...

[Loz]

> So for now, let's put aside that particular claim and let's look at what has been happening to

> Palestine

>

> http://images.alarabiya.net/israel-palestine_map_19225_2469.jpg

That 1917 map is misleading - it should show Palestine including the Trans-Jordan region (now Jordan).

[StraferJack]

bigger picture Loz, bigger picture

[Loz]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> bigger picture Loz, bigger picture

I am a historical pedant!

(Edited to remove a bit that I realise clouds the issue now I've done a bit of googling.)

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Do you have any idea why Hamas are firing rockets?

> I know quids says because they want the state

> wiped of the face of the earth forever but lots of

> lunatics say things that don't amount to much

>

Just for clarity, are you calling Quids a lunatic, or does that just read wrong? ;-)

> DIFFERENT SITUATION I KNOW - but IRA were never

> ever going to surrender until a 32 county Ireland

> right?- but guess what? Dialogue was open and

> ongoing and brought about a more peaceful

> situation

>

> So for now, let's put aside that particular claim

> and let's look at what has been happening to

> Palestine

>

> http://images.alarabiya.net/israel-palestine_map_1

> 9225_2469.jpg

>

> At what point to you think Israel will stop

> expanding? Rockets or no rockets?

I don't have an answer to that (obviously), but it's beside the point anyway.

I don't think anyone sensible would suggest that Israel don't need to do things very differently, but nothing will be done about borders, water, healthcare and the rest as long as fighting continues.

Can I just be very clear here. I am not pro Israel, I think a lot of what they do stinks. I shouldn't need to say that, but...

[????]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Gaza Strip and the West Bank was a mistake a

> typo

> > druiven by trying to post quickly on the way to

> > work before idiots started branding me as some

> > kond of de fcato child murdere - sighs. Is that

> > the best you've got? ooh a mistake.

> >

>

> Wow. Yeah. That's really happened. IN YOUR OWN

> HEAD.

>

> Seriously...

Nope. it's just what happened on numerous other threads in the past by people with no tolerance for other people's differing views from their rather obvious orthodoxy. I

Remember the one in the Drawing room on pensions that had you ranting and spitting unpleaaantness at me within minutes as an example? Nope?......

[Loz]

.

[????]

So, anyway, who did march on Saturday?

[StraferJack]

"Just for clarity, are you calling Quids a lunatic, or does that just read wrong? "

yeah you did read that wrong - it was a reference to leaders of extreme orgs like IRA and Hamas with their "until we achieve 100% of our goals" rhetoric

"but nothing will be done about borders, water, healthcare and the rest as long as fighting continues. "

well why not? It's a choice surely? There have been long periods of no rocket activity over the years - nothing much seems to change for teh Palestinians tho

quids - i remeber that one and I seem to recall a hasty apology and acceptance between you two. bringing it up again now seems a bit off?

Plus you are no stranger to innacurate, spittle-flecked unpleasantness yourself on here ?

[StraferJack]

as we are repeating questions tho'

""the simplistic anti-isareli position is, at best, simplistic and sometime smacks of something altogether more sinister......."

did we ever find out what exactly the "something altogether more sinister" was?"

no I didn't attend the march on Saturday - point being?

[????]

Against a generalisatio, plenty; against an individual poster, very rarely - although in 10k posts there are a few instances I suspect....

[david_carnell]

I remember some particularly unpleasant PM's I received from you. Are they related?

People in glass houses and all that....

But the vast majority of the time your posts just reek of paranoia.... no is out to get you and I'm happy to listen to what you have to say. Just do it without the constant sneery asides.

[StraferJack]

"Against a generalisatio, plenty; against an individual poster, very rarely - although in 10k posts there are a few instances I suspect....

"

but has it happened here? on this thread - against you?

[maxxi]

With reference to Ireland - there were also grass-roots movements pre-Saint Tony,

#jewsandarabsrefusetobeenemies appears to be gaining ground: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2702674/Picture-Arab-Jewish-American-couple-kissing-sweeps-internet-mixed-faith-couples-join-call-peace.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490