Palestinian PR

[StraferJack]

Daily show getting to the nub of it (the imbalance part anyway)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqKu5rSTyP8

Then again, Jon Stewart is notoriously anti-Semitic right?

* What? He's what? No way! *

[david_carnell]

God I love Jon Stewart and that show - can it be so hard to make one here?

One without Jimmy Carr and Lauren Laverne (who is fine with music on the radio).

[StraferJack]

All gone quiet in this thread.

Wish I could say the same about events

[vgrant]

Its ok though, the IDF are just targeting Hamas militants. No one else has anything to fear.

[Parkdrive]

Saw a photo this morning of a group of Palestinian kids playing on a beach before the Israelis blasted them to smithereens. My how good they must feel about themselves while the world stands by and scratches its balls. Whatever happened to the lessons they should have learned from the treatment they've had to put up with for centuries? And they wonder why sympathy for them is disappearing, if not already evaporated. What is that now 200 to 1 to the Israeli state? Bravo

[vgrant]

There is no erosion of support or sympathy for Israel that I can see. Just an hardening of opinion for those who have already decided their stance.

[Parkdrive]

vgrant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is no erosion of support or sympathy for

> Israel that I can see. Just an hardening of

> opinion for those who have already decided their

> stance.

Maybe not from the US and Western goverments, but by and large there is a swell of public opinion against the Iraelis both here and adbroad. Shamefully the authorities are refusing to take heed, shock. Dare I say the Israelis actions are fast mirroring some of those visited upon them by the like of the Nazis and others over the centuries. They should feel deeply ashamed.

[vgrant]

Dunno - Im not seeing anyone cross over from either side on the basis of the this scuffle.Its only the recent in a long list of territorial scuffles - if anything, given the Syrian situation and the very real threat of proper off the leash nutters banging on Israels doors, I can only see opinions hardening. Sad as it is, nothing has really been done to alleviate the past 40 years of bother there so far, I dont see this incursion making any lasting difference either way.

Maybe its about time TBlair got out of his ermine trimmed board seat at JP Morgan and sprinkled a bit of his magic fairy dust on the region and see if he can fix it - like he did with eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeraq and Afhghanistan

[El Pibe]

The off the leash nutters will be dealt with soon enough. They're useful idiots for the baathists in sunni iraq, but i can't see them making the same mistake's as they did in 2006.

Plus those nutters are more intertested in toppling the house of Saud (oh the irony) once they've dealt with the shia, which demographically won't happen either.

Short term prognosis for iraq, a nasty prang outside baghdad with a lesser prang on the borders of kurdistan, long term prognosis, 3 iraqs on those lines.

How long the fighting lasts depends on how quickly they agree to divvy up the oil fields rather than fight to retain them.

Syria, ISIS spending most of its time fighting moderate rebels; uneasy peace in the next year or so between them and gov't, some sort of compromise will ensue, but Assad will stay in power, with perhaps increased autonomy for certain regions.

Israel really is a total side issue in this, which works in Israel's favour. Iran and Hamas have had a bit of a falling out, hezbollah are stuck in Syria's civil war and trying to prevent meltdown in Lebanon, and everyone else in the region is too busy, weak and/or paranoid to give this spat a second thought.

As DaveR quoted earlier "when i'm strong why should i compromise"

[TE44]

vgrant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dunno - Im not seeing anyone cross over from

> either side on the basis of the this scuffle.Its

> only the recent in a long list of territorial

> scuffles - if anything, given the Syrian situation

> and the very real threat of proper off the leash

> nutters banging on Israels doors, I can only see

> opinions hardening. Sad as it is, nothing has

> really been done to alleviate the past 40 years of

> bother there so far, I dont see this incursion

> making any lasting difference either way.

>

> Maybe its about time TBlair got out of his ermine

> trimmed board seat at JP Morgan and sprinkled a

> bit of his magic fairy dust on the region and see

> if he can fix it - like he did with

> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeraq and

> Afhghanistan

I think Blairs peace position revolves around his involvement with gas in Gaza.

[vgrant]

you old cynic you - fancy thinking that energy grab is behind St Tones interest in the ME

[TE44]

I know, iv'e been practicing to be a hard cynic for years, i'm told it

stops you crying, and i've got a tap to turn off and on when i choose.

The children killed on the beach was horrendous, I watched this last night,there were so many people,

Journalists filming this, I totally understand the need to let people see what is happening,

But there were so many people the ambulance men couldnt get the doors shut.

[Loz]

If only more people on both sides of the stupidity were as brave and thoughtful as this man.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/18/father-children-gaza-bloodshed-palestinians-israelis

[Parkdrive]

I see the Israeli military is now targeting hospitals. Bravo. The rockets will soon stop, as you've kill everyone in sight. You must feel so proud of your achievements.

[Parkdrive]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/21/israeli-sniper-caught-on-camera-murdering-palestinian-civilian-searching-rubble-for-relatives/

Well there's a shock Israel behaving like the nazis. Shame on you Israel.

[StraferJack]

Seems like mere weeks ago several posters on here were defending Israel's actions.

Does the lack of posting in here indicate a big/small shift in position, or are people just waiting to see how gaza actions finish up?

[????]

No they weren't they were trying to explain why the situation is horrific but not all one way - your sort of complete misrepresentation of what they were saying is completely typical of the black and white hatred rubbish of social media and simplistic naivety at best, at worst it's the smearing rants of the usual suspects. They were, as far as I can see, pointing out that Hamas was as much culpable in this as Israel - albeit without as sophisticated weaponry.

[StraferJack]

But that isn't true is it?

Saying the weaponry isn't as sophisticated in no way explains just what is happening

The comparison has been made before but if England carpet bombed Ireland because of its actions, would it be ok to say the ira were culpable?

It's no solution to the problem. As Israel isn't actually suffering too much by way of casualty why aren't the answerable?

I fail to see how the two sides are somehow being held as equally culpable

[El Pibe]

"They were, as far as I can see, pointing out that Hamas was as much culpable in this as Israel"

Which is false, theyre not.

There needs to be movement towards giving palestinians dignity and freedom. Since Oslo things have got streadily worse for the Palestinians, not better, since 2001 dramatically so, the seige of Gaza has now gone on for 7 years whilst more settlements go up, more villages buldozed, more water taken.

I sincerely believe Israel has settled for managed conflict as the price it pays for the long term goal of a greater israel.

Hence my point about school massacres in the US the price people are willing to pay for gun ownership.

So what would you do in that situation, genuine question, go 'fair enough, wouldn't want to upset them or they'll rape my sister and it'll be my fault as everyone keeps pointing out, best accept life in an open prison and indefinite statelessness".

I can only see a single state being the answer, but Israel won't go for it because it'll either have to accept that likud won't be winning any more elections (a la end of apartheid in S Africa) or it'll have to drop the pretence that its a democracy.

[El Pibe]

"Hence my point about school massacres in the US the price people are willing to pay for gun ownership."

thinking about it the oft proposed solutions curiously parallel each other, more guns being the dissonant cry.

[StraferJack]

I really do resent being told I'm, black and white Israeli-hating when only one side is absolutely destroying 100s of lives, deliberately targetting defenseless people and buildings and issuing meaninless warnings to "leave" withing minutes if they want to live

I condone not a jot of Hamas actions, but then given how useless they are (all things being relative) then I somehow can't find it in my heart to get quite as worked up about them. That doesn't make me black and white

I would argue I'm more nuanced than people who continually haul anti( social-media/libera/smearing/usual suspects) into EVERY FUKING ARGUMENT

But let's imagine a world where Hamas are defeated and/or realise that rockets isn't getting them anywahere - where does that leave everyone then? Do people think that both sides will be bale to go about their daily business with no need for aggro?

or will the ongoing expansion of occupied territory provoke more hostilities?

[El Pibe]

Not to mention there are now several thousand more people with a burning hatred, utterly traumatised, orphaned, lost sisters mothers daughters brothers and sons, who may have been moderate or simply trying to survive their shitty existence, filled with a desire for revenge.

Given that this is the third cycle of violence and cease fire followed by status quo in 7 years, where is there hope for progress?

[El Pibe]

and just in case those civilians become mere statistics....

obviously the graphic is already out of date.

[StraferJack]

There was some posting a few days back about how this hasn't changed public opinion of Israel but definitely in America it seems to have shifted. I'm hearing some American colleagues express opinions I don't think I would have heard before for sure

[????]

The comparison has been made before but if England carpet bombed Ireland because of its actions, would it be ok to say the ira were culpable?

Made by Fisk and easily Fisked

- Hamas is the De Facto elected govt of the West Bank...the IRA was not the democratically eleced govt of the Republic

- Hamas is cosntitutioly committed to the detsruction of the State of Israel - the IRA wasn't committed to teh destruction of GB

I'm despairing of the hope of progress - and key amnong ONE of the reasons is the fact that so many of the people around Israel itself absolutely refuse to acknowledge its right to exist. The last time there was some hope (oslo) the sucide bombing campaigns of the Infata(sp?) which killed 200 Israelis contributed to the election of the uncompromising right wing Israeli govt, who, I agree, have acted with murderous and pretty indiscriminate violence against any attack (however puny) from the West Bank.

Defending Israel's actions or just trying to understand them in the hope of seeing if there is a way through this (of which I doubt) you decide? but, as normal, it looks like you already have and one way traffic is the order of the day