Bull

[Narnia]

Actually bullfighting. My son has to write an essay on the subject for his Spanish A level. I'd be interested on hearing what views people have on the 'subject'.I hope your views might help him with his essay. Thanks if you contribute.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I have no problem with the sport of evading a charging bull if one is stupid enough to try it. Don't agree with the longwinded execution bit, especially since there appears to be no reason (eg, vermin, leather, meat).

A spot of googling Ernest Hemmingway might not go amiss.

Our Spanish exchange student thought the practice was barbaric (aged 14) if that's any help.

[wee quinnie]

It IS barbaric. All that stuff were they kind of piss the bull off and stick a big spear thing through its neck are just bloody torture. Bad bad bad

[microbite]

Have to agree with Quinnie on this one, not a big fan at all, although I really love it when the bullfighters get the tables turned on them and the bull manages to stick a horn in there before he is pounced on by more people and slaughtered, its an unfair fight, the bull never wins, so think they should call it bull slowly being slaughtered and terrified to death as opposed to bull fight as the name suggests the bull has an equal chance of winning.

[Brendan]

It?s a remnant left over from the Roman Empire. As a consequence of their Roman past the Spanish torture bulls. As a consequence of our Roman past we torture our children by making them learn Latin at school.

[david_carnell]

I can't say it bothers me. I don't approve of it but I'd find it very difficult to get worked up over or upset about.

It isn't cruelty on an industrial scale (in the same way battery farming is) and a skilled matador kills the bull in a quick and humane manner.

I rather enjoy the aesthetics of it. Man vs Beast. The pomp - playing dress up, the baying crowd, the almost balletic foreplay before the bull's death, that sort of thing. And I suppose the cultural tradition of the whole thing is quite appealing too.

I'm fully aware of the flaws in all these arguments and wouldn't offer them as academic make-weights. Nonetheless, they work for me.

I suppose the cynic in me says that there are far more worthy causes in the world to put your effort into than this. In the same way I found the endles debate over fox-hunting quite dull when human poverty remains paramount, the same applies here.

[Narnia]

Thank you for your replies and I hope to get more!

[wee quinnie]

david_carnell Wrote:

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>

>

> It isn't cruelty on an industrial scale (in the

> same way battery farming is) and a skilled matador

> kills the bull in a quick and humane manner.

>

>

You're right about battery farming. However, the actual killing of the bull bit doesn't happen until after the bull has been tortured and stuff for a good while. Have to give the people a show, apparently.

[david_carnell]

I think "torture" may be a tad hyperbolic.

[wee quinnie]

They stick a bloody great lance right through its neck. I'd call that torture.

[SimonM]

You should get him to read Hemingway's "Death In The Afternoon" for how bullfighting used to be, before football became the more popular spectator sport in Spain. I still loathe the pastime/activity but at least consider myself a little bit better informed...

[Pickle]

I went to a bullfight a number of years ago in Madrid. Didn't enjoy it, felt it was very barbaric, hated the fact that the bulls were "finished off" in front of everyone. It's one of those things I wanted to experience, but certainly won't be going to another one.

One interesting thing however was the way it seemed to be a real family occasion, most of the people there were families with children, all very excited about it, and the kids didn't blink an eye at what was happening to the bulls. I'm not sure what I was expecting the audience to be like, but I wasn't expecting loads of families.

[david_carnell]

I'd call be dropped in boiling water tortuous as well but shellfish seem to get a raw deal (if you pardon the pun). It's all a matter of perspective.

The lancing weakens the bulls stamina and increases it's liklihood of charging. The matador then finishes it quite quickly with a sword.

Animals are beaten every day. Think what jockeys do to a horse. I rather think that the English are horribly sentimental when it comes to animal welfare. It's why the hedgehog and donkey sanctuaries of this country are inundated with cheques from little old ladies whilst charities dealing with certain human issues are scrabbling around for cash.

I don't get enojoyment from animal cruelty but I just wish people would care about more important things.

[wee quinnie]

David, I agree with most of what you say - however, the business with lancing the bulls neck is quite a longish process and is not followed that swiftly by plunging the sword in.

You're deffo completely spot on with the hypocrisy of people going all gooey eyed over donkeys/dogs etc., but not seeming to give a stuff about the origins of the meat on their plate.

[mockney piers]

You great lily-livered pinko pansies the lot of you.

Tis a noble sport and no mistake in this sanitised age when even our bombs drop bloodlessly in black & white, to have a bit of technicolor death in the afternoon.

In seriousness the English part of me wanted to be appalled when I first went but I have to say I was rather seduced by it all, perhaps appealing to something atavistically in me. Never go and see one outside of Andalucia, they don't know what they're doing, though if you do see one in Madrid, be sure to go at the height of the season when the best toreadores are there and pay through the nose for a good 'un.

As D_C says, a skilful corrida is impressive and strangely beautiful to behold. The varas, or lancing is somewhat brutal and is done simply to tire the bull out so it doesn't go on for hours; it's not pretty, but the lance should go in the hunk of fat at the back of the neck, that has no nerves, although I have seen it pierce shoulder even lung when done badly.

The skill and bravery of the banderilleros is quite a sight to behold, and then the paseos and the estocada (literally sticking with the sword) can be breathtaking, and if done correctly the bull dies instantly.

Plus the bulls live a pretty good life, unfettered by human contact, eating, roaming and shagging freely, until a moment of glorious death and hey, they even get to kill a bullfighter once in a blue moon!

I've been to one in Barcelona that was none of these things, it was ugly, brutal, savage and entirely lacking in art or aesthetics. Avoid at all costs.

If you're not inclined to get it then I don't suppose you ever will, nor do I expect you to try, why would you?

And though it's popularity was ebbing, it has enjoyed something of a cultural revival over the last decade or more and it is part of our culture and heritage and I'm glad it exists and would probably be so even had I actively loathed it that first time; it's part of what I love about Spain, they're so in touch with who and what they are as a people.

You know we should learn a thing or two from them and stop being so down on Morris dancing ;-)

[mockney piers]

I, you, we, they, jeez I've some identity issues haven't he.

[Moos]

David, your main argument appears to be that bull fighting is OK because cruelty to children is worse.

Stick to the chuffing point.

And your ancillary argument is a rather weedy "define torture". The point of cooking shellfish is so that they are cooked and can be eaten. It takes a couple of minutes. The point of killing bulls is for its own sake, it is a 'competition' with a pre-defined result. It can take quite a long time, and whether or not it's torture it is inflicting pain and prolonged suffering for entertainment*. This is what we have been asked to opine upon.

Whether or not little old ladies or hulking young toffs should give their cheques to donkey sanctuaries or to the NSPCC is just so much guff in this particular discussion.

*I guess that gives you a fairly good understanding of my viewpoint...

[lozzyloz]

If I do a perfect little pirouette dressed from top to toe in Chanel Couture before cleanly slicing off your pet dogs head with an extra sharp meat cleaver, would this be acceptable on the basis of artistic merit? Cruelty to animals is surely not acceptable in any form.

[mockney piers]

"If I do a perfect little pirouette dressed from top to toe in Chanel Couture before cleanly slicing off your pet dogs head with an extra sharp meat cleaver, would this be acceptable on the basis of artistic merit?"

Isnt that one of this year's Turner prize entrants?

[lozzyloz]

It was, but was disqualified on the basis of Chanel being too mainstream.

[Brendan]

I?m in a bit of a dilemma here. I don?t know which is more distasteful. Cruelty to animals or sanctimonious London liberals, sitting on their pampered behinds and being critical about the way other people in other countries live their lives.

I?m inclined to agree with David though that if evils need to be corrected in this world bullfighting comes in very low on the list.

[lozzyloz]

"critical about the way other people in other countries live their lives" would you include ethnic cleansing in Rwanda or Darfur within that context or just animal cruelty?

[Brendan]

Well it depends. Are you going to be wearing Chanel again?

[SeanMacGabhann]

is it just me who, when I read that saw lozzyloz look like

http://www.me.ntu.edu.tw/~matador/logo.jpg

and Brendan as

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/thumb/e/ed/Man_Bull_001.jpg/200px-Man_Bull_001.jpg

[lozzyloz]

No, definitely in a Primark mood today.