Diversify Disney - please support this campaign

[LondonMix]

I think a feminist can certainly want to look pretty and get married (I do and did!) but I am not sure little girls should see that as their main storyline in life.

I agree with Otta?for boys / men, stories involve having an adventure that may include a love interest where for girls / women they look for love and maybe have an adventure along the way. It?s kind of weird.

[mitch_ems]

Wow...what an amazing response...thankyou! Especially those who have taken the time to sign the petition..and sharing it with others - a mighty girl is inspired..

Personally I love the imagination and wonder of disney...and could watch tangled, mulan et al over and over...but I think, particularly with their products, they should do much more re diversity from all perspectives. Im a mum with dual heritage girls...and am conflicted in wanting them to enjoy the wonder of disney, whilst also supporting them to have a positive self-image...

Disney has the creativity and the resources...it just needs the will...and the bonkers thing is it would make them even more money...

[Saffron]

I'm all for diversity. What I'm not comfortable with is the defining of feminist conformity in the process, ie diversity narrowing feminist choice by excluding traditional ideals, or anti-feminism defined by what diversity isn't. For the record, I don't necessarily think your petition does that. xx

[Otta]

And that's the problem with the term "feminist", way too many opinions (all valid) using the same umbrella term.

The arse wiggle and sexy dress thing was pointed outt to me by someone that would most def describe herself as a feminist.

Foe me personally I just think the age range of the target audience makes it more worrying. Of course we should encourage girls to be what they want to be, we just don't necessarily have to tell them at that age that their heroes are nearly all dress wearing slim princesses.

[Otta]

Says the complete hypocrite who will be giving his daughter THAT dress on her birthday tomorrow.

I hate myself so much right now.

[kmoon249]

Our first disney paraphernalia was a gift tub of chocolates in a tin decorated with a montage of disney princesses for our 4 year old. My husband and I looked at the pictures and agreed if you replaced the princess outfits with playboy bunny outfits you'd have a bunch of centerfolds. We ate the chocolates and chucked the tin in the bin.

[Saffron]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Says the complete hypocrite who will be giving

> his daughter THAT dress on her birthday tomorrow.

>

>

>

Life's tough, eh?

>

>

>

> I hate myself so much right now.

I still like you.

;-)

[Saffron]

kmoon249 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Our first disney paraphernalia was a gift tub of

> chocolates in a tin decorated with a montage of

> disney princesses for our 4 year old. My husband

> and I looked at the pictures and agreed if you

> replaced the princess outfits with playboy bunny

> outfits you'd have a bunch of centerfolds. We ate

> the chocolates and chucked the tin in the bin.

Why, because you already had loads of other centrefold tins?...

Or was it because a curvy attractive young woman could surely only ever have a job in a gentleman's club?!?

I guess I should take my 5'6", 54 kg, 34-26-36 figure and go work in a bar, because I've obviously missed my calling by working in hardcore science.

[Saffron]

The difficulyt in defining what something IS ('feminism' or 'diversity', for example), is taking care in not defining what it isn't. xx

[LondonMix]

I get where you are coming from Saffron?I used to have a body like that (now add 5 kilos :O)

Being physically attractive, dressing in an overtly feminine or sexy way, liking beauty and taking care of yourself in no way undermines any woman?s credibility as a feminist / intelligent woman.

However, if every character / role model presented by the media looks like a curvy bombshell (regardless of the backstory), its sending a pretty clear message that is the most important attribute in a woman to be admired. The image isn?t inclusive and it clearly sets up a moral hierarchy with looks at the top.

I think even glamorous sexy feminists can agree that isn?t a healthy message for young girls.

[Otta]

Saffron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I guess I should take my 5'6", 54 kg, 34-26-36

> figure and go work in a bar,

Sweet, tell us which bar, I'll come for a beer.

[uncleglen]

You would stand a fighting chance getting a job in a bar these days with those vital stats- but 35 years ago it would have to have been at least 38-24-36, and a low cut blouse and a micro skirt or hot pants!(or a large belt as my old dad used to say to my sister).Things have moved on but Disney hasn't I fear.

[Saffron]

Hahahahaaa!

[Convex]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I get where you are coming from Saffron?I used to

> have a body like that (now add 5 kilos :O)

>

> Being physically attractive, dressing in an

> overtly feminine or sexy way, liking beauty and

> taking care of yourself in no way undermines any

> woman?s credibility as a feminist / intelligent

> woman.

>

> However, if every character / role model presented

> by the media looks like a curvy bombshell

> (regardless of the backstory), its sending a

> pretty clear message that is the most important

> attribute in a woman to be admired. The image

> isn?t inclusive and it clearly sets up a moral

> hierarchy with looks at the top.

>

> I think even glamorous sexy feminists can agree

> that isn?t a healthy message for young girls.

Agree with this and I think you've put it really well.

[VanessaPMR]

...whhaaaaaat?? Since when do you have to be 5'6", 54 kg, 34-26-36, to be considered 'attractive'??

Frankly, I dont think anyone is very worried about the poor girls (or now it seems the conversation has moved on to grown women) who grow up to have smokin' bodies...

I support this campaign for all the girls who are constantly being told that they dont live up to what is for many an unobtainable ideal, and that they are therefore physically unacceptable....

I'll say it again: CHILDREN being told that they are physically unacceptable..

I also support this campaign as I hate adults sexualising childhood, and having childhood heroines with 'bunny' sexy bodies.. is wrong 'cause:

1 - I dont want my girls to be internalising a highly restrictive and deeply conservative understanding of what attractive is...(see above)

2- one of these days it would be nice to think that girls could be valued for who and what they are and not need to be ranked by their capacity to be f****able.......

[StraferJack]

Have to say, when I read this I thought it might be a specific forumite

http://twitter.com/AmznMovieRevws/status/497069824309460993/photo/1

[Peachpie]

Lego have seen sense!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28660069

[Otta]

If you mean me SJ, then you should know better than to think I'd be on Twitter!

[midivydale]

...whhaaaaaat?? Since when do you have to be 5'6", 54 kg, 34-26-36, to be considered 'attractive'??

Frankly, I dont think anyone is very worried about the poor girls (or now it seems the conversation has moved on to grown women) who grow up to have smokin' bodies...

I support this campaign for all the girls who are constantly being told that they dont live up to what is for many an unobtainable ideal, and that they are therefore physically unacceptable....

I'll say it again: CHILDREN being told that they are physically unacceptable..

I also support this campaign as I hate adults sexualising childhood, and having childhood heroines with 'bunny' sexy bodies.. is wrong 'cause:

1 - I dont want my girls to be internalising a highly restrictive and deeply conservative understanding of what attractive is...(see above)

2- one of these days it would be nice to think that girls could be valued for who and what they are and not need to be ranked by their capacity to be f****able.......

Yes yes and yes!

[Saffron]

Well, according to uncleglen, you have to be "38-24-36".

I think it's highly suspect subtly to teach children that "curvy bombshells" are somehow necessarily sexualised and therefore less worthy, just because some people see them that way. If you only have one thing in the house with Disney princesses on it, then your children aren't being bombarded with that. They're being exposed to one thing. I digress.... What exactly is meant by "diversifying"? Do people really want diversity, or do they want their own ideas of diversity?

Maybe Disney should have disabled characters...? Ah there was the Hunchback. Ok, perhaps, non-white characters? ...Jasmine, Pocahontas, Mulan. Ah, well, they're busty, so don't count them (because nobody's worried about girls who grow up to have curvy figues?). How about a normal-sized little girl character? ...Lilo? What about male characters? Clever--> ...Peter Pan. Fallible--> ...Lion King. ...more on the way, but controversial? -->http://msmagazine.com/blog/2010/11/23/disneys-male-execs-stop-movies-starring-girls/. Maybe that's just oversimplifying: People write whole dissertations on this stuff. http://www.uky.edu/~addesa01/documents/ThePrincessandtheMagicKingdom.pdf. And since children don't live in a world of their own, if we consider diversity and children, we are necessarily in-taking ideas that encompass both women (and men) and children.

If you don't like Disney princesses etc, don't buy them, fine. Why poo-poo them for other people who enjoy them without feeling limited by someone else's ideas? TBH, I don't think the OP's petition does that. However, I'm left with elusive idea of "diversity", and I'm questioning philosophically exactly where that's going? Now, I'm not saying that improvements can/can't be made at Disney. What I am wondering is just what exactly IS diverse? If we throw out all the 'princesses' with that bath water, we've passed an unwritten judgement. It's not always just a case of media bombardment, sometimes it's a case of how blinkered or open our own views are: http://www.bustle.com/articles/17263-are-disney-princesses-bad-role-models-not-if-you-consider-these-feminist-moments. It's no wonder so many young women now don't identify with feminism: http://www.genderandeducation.com/issues/why-is-feminism-a-%E2%80%9Cdirty-word%E2%80%9D-among-teenage-girls/. Despite a hundred years of progress, the slope remains, if not slippery, at least still difficult to define for many young people. Complex issue, and IMHO definitely not summed up simply by inclusive/exclusive statements about beauty or diversity, i.e. defining what something is by defining what it isn't. xx

[Saffron]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Saffron Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I guess I should take my 5'6", 54 kg, 34-26-36

> > figure and go work in a bar,

>

>

>

> Sweet, tell us which bar, I'll come for a beer.

That place on the corner with the discreet frontage. You buyin'?

[LondonMix]

I don't really think it's that complicated. Look at this image:

Every princess / heroine has a tiny waist and big boobs etc. Irrespective of where they are from or the personality Disney gives them, it clear that to be a female heroine the characteristic you MUST have is a hot body.

Why is this necessary or desirable? If you look at older drawings of Snow White she was much less sexualised so this is an increasingly modern trend. It reinforces a world view where to be a special girl, the baseline criteria is your body.

[midivydale]

Saffron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, according to uncleglen, you have to be

> "38-24-36".

>

> I think it's highly suspect subtly to teach

> children that "curvy bombshells" are somehow

> necessarily sexualised and therefore less worthy,

> just because some people see them that way. If

> you only have one thing in the house with Disney

> princesses on it, then your children aren't being

> bombarded with that. They're being exposed to one

> thing. I digress.... What exactly is meant by

> "diversifying"? Do people really want diversity,

> or do they want their own ideas of diversity?

>

> Maybe Disney should have disabled characters...?

> Ah there was the Hunchback. Ok, perhaps,

> non-white characters? ...Jasmine, Pocahontas,

> Mulan. Ah, well, they're busty, so don't count

> them (because nobody's worried about girls who

> grow up to have curvy figues?). How about a

> normal-sized little girl character? ...Lilo? What

> about male characters? Clever--> ...Peter Pan.

> Fallible--> ...Lion King. ...more on the way, but

> controversial?

> -->http://msmagazine.com/blog/2010/11/23/disneys-m

> ale-execs-stop-movies-starring-girls/. Maybe

> that's just oversimplifying: People write whole

> dissertations on this stuff.

> http://www.uky.edu/~addesa01/documents/ThePrincess

> andtheMagicKingdom.pdf. And since children don't

> live in a world of their own, if we consider

> diversity and children, we are necessarily

> in-taking ideas that encompass both women (and

> men) and children.

>

> If you don't like Disney princesses etc, don't buy

> them, fine. Why poo-poo them for other people who

> enjoy them without feeling limited by someone

> else's ideas? TBH, I don't think the OP's

> petition does that. However, I'm left with

> elusive idea of "diversity", and I'm questioning

> philosophically exactly where that's going? Now,

> I'm not saying that improvements can/can't be made

> at Disney. What I am wondering is just what

> exactly IS diverse? If we throw out all the

> 'princesses' with that bath water, we've passed an

> unwritten judgement. It's not always just a case

> of media bombardment, sometimes it's a case of how

> blinkered or open our own views are:

> http://www.bustle.com/articles/17263-are-disney-pr

> incesses-bad-role-models-not-if-you-consider-these

> -feminist-moments. It's no wonder so many young

> women now don't identify with feminism:

> http://www.genderandeducation.com/issues/why-is-fe

> minism-a-%E2%80%9Cdirty-word%E2%80%9D-among-teenag

> e-girls/. Despite a hundred years of progress,

> the slope remains, if not slippery, at least still

> difficult to define for many young people.

> Complex issue, and IMHO definitely not summed up

> simply by inclusive/exclusive statements about

> beauty or diversity, i.e. defining what something

> is by defining what it isn't. xx

As always - all very valid points delivered so eloquently by saffron.

Personally, I would very much welcome some non white princesses and heroes. A matter very close to my heart.

X

[oimissus]

I'm a bit tipsy but excellent post by Saffron (too tipsy to read all your links, but I will do so tomorrow).

D'you know what worries me more, as a mother of a girl? Things like a recent thread on Mumsnet, where, because a teacher failed to discipline some jeering boys properly, girls who had been doing handstands in the playground and thus their knickers were briefly on show were told to go inside and put shorts on under their frocks. That makes my blood boil. Primary-aged girls being taught that it's up to them to modify their clothing and/or behaviour because boys can't be expected to. And the number of women on that thread who supported this made me even angrier. Because it's only a hop, skip and a jump to that NHS poster doing the rounds suggesting that if a drunk woman is raped, it's her fault for being drunk.

That's real. That's happening in our schools and playgrounds. That's something to get really angry about. If Miss Oi's school ever did such a thing I would be in there, all guns blazing. But Disney princesses? Nothing about the way they look is real - we've practically got Tangled on a loop at the moment and what I really see is Rapunzel's ludicrously huge eyes. Not her body shape. Nothing about her look is based in reality, so I find that easy to deal with.

I really am rather tipsy, but I've been wanting to say that for a few days.

[buggie]

I'm not tipsy (can't wait till the youngest is old enough to allow that!) but oimissus your post makes complete sense & I agree it's something I spend much longer worrying & wanting action taken on than a cartoon of fictional people in fictional stories.

Some of these posts reminds me of the Cinderella thread of last year.