If you cycle in London, this should be of interest

[Medley]

TfL consultation is now open on their plans for a North-South and East-West mostly segregated cycle track routes through central London.

North South runs Elephant to King's Cross. East West runs Tower Hill to Acton.

East West one here: https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/cycling/eastwest/consult_view

North South one here: https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/cycling/northsouth

Personally I think this is the biggest step forwards I've seen in my time cycling in London (since 2005). They're not perfect of course, but please have your say. Historic opportunity that could easily be defeated/whittled down to being nothing like as good.

[Administrator]

I know this isn't strictly East Dulwich but there's a lot of cyclists on the forum so this will stay in the General ED issues section.

And if it turns into a "bloody cyclists think they own the pavements" vs "damn car drivers pay for this with their road taxes" type argument again I'm going to Lounge it promptly.

[DuncanW]

These proposals look great - I have registered my support for both.

Thanks for sharing

[James Barber]

I've gone through the proposals in detail. Apart from my current role of East Dulwich councillor, I used chair Southwark Cyclists for a number of years campaigning for better cycle facilities.

I'm really disappointed with what is proposed. I would not expect to use these facilities while cycling around town but remain on the parallel roads. Two-way segregated cycle faciltities are really retrograde - I've not seen these while cycling around on busy Amsterdam and Copenhagen streets.

The proposals clearly have no understanding of the current facilities and junctions that effectively are planned to repeated in this scheme. Current problems cyclists are encountering with cyclists congestion (Churchyard Road/Newington Butts, Wellington Street/Waterloo Bridge southbound lights). It means cyclists bunch to avoid missing a green phase blocking the opposing direction of cyclists. It also means they block pedestrians walking along the road.

Sad that no mention of a green wave of signalled junctions working together so cyclists don't need to stop once they hit the perfect speed a la Copenhagen - which also works well for motor vehicles. This would help avoid cyclsits bunching at traffic lights as well as speeding up journeys.

The route from Elephant & Castle to St.George's Circus is indirect. Cyclsits already cyclnig the route will ignore the new facility. New cyclsits will soon realise they're being sent on a daft indirect route.

Also talk of severe disruption for over a year on the route. This would be aleviated by seperate one-way cyclse lanes which each take up less space and in many cases wouldnt need central islands etc being repositioned.

[JohnL]

Segregation - If it really feels safe - I'd cycle in London :)

[Earl Aelfheah]

I am slightly nervous about the idea of having having cyclist going in both directions on the same narrow path and the fact that some of the paths will at pavement level (pedestrians will walk in them, stand in them talking on their phone etc.). Looks like a genuine attempt to make cycling safer though.

[Too Good To Be True]

I think cyclists are willing to sacrifice directness for a pleasant ride.

For example, I know several cyclists who use LCN23+CS7+Cannon Street to get to Bank, where Walworth+E&C Roundabout+Borough High St+London Bridge would be the quickest route.

As long as the pleasant route is well-signposted, I don't see a problem.

[d.b]

I can envision some handsome additions to this list, a long-time favourite...

Cycle Facility of the Month: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/

Worth trawling the full archive if you have time.

[stepover]

I agree with the concerns about the paths being bi-directional with (from the looks of things) no markings or physical separation (such as cats eyes) between the opposing cycle lanes. Anyone who has ever cycled in Richmond Park will be well familiar with the small(ish) minority of idiot cyclists who will move out at speed into oncoming traffic in order to over take slower cyclists. Although the pictures in the proposal show a wide cycle lane with apparently room to overtake safely, I fear in practice this will not be the case.

I also can't understand why the proposal shows the lane beginning on the north side of the Elephant & Castle roundabout. It is well documented that the E&C Roundabout is the number 1 fatality black spot for cyclists in London but it is crossing the roundabout that is the problem - so surely the safe lane needs to begin BEFORE not after the roundabout?!

[cosmonaut]

stepover, the E&C roundabout scheme proposals were already up for consultation earlier this year. The results can be seen here. https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/elephant-and-castle

Also everyone, the extension to CS5 is still up for consultation -- it may be of interest to those of you who cycle along the CS5 route through Peckham and Camberwell. The extension covers Oval to Belgravia. View & comment here: https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/cycling/cs5-inner/consult_view

[ultraburner]

Not that worried about being on a path with bikes coming towards me. Far less worried than being dragged under a 30 ton truck anyway.

[ultraburner]

And I don't understand JB's underlying negative stance either. Is that because it doesn't run down Lordship Lane? Seems a bit political.

Phasing of lights and cats eyes are minor details imo, and comparing London to Amsterdam etc just isn't realistic; those cities have been positive towards cyclists for decades now, and what works there wouldn't work here.

[Applespider]

I'm in two minds on whether I'll use all of the segregated routes all the time as if it's too congested on them, I'd rather go along the road. However, I can see that for those who don't cycle regularly and are nervous, they're a great idea. I'd probably have used them for my first few weeks of cycle commuting. A shout out to the great cycle training that Southwark Council offers though - it's a brilliant way to improve confidence on the roads until these come in.

I do have concerns that they'll be maintained well (cleaned/swept of debris and that they'll be gritted in the winter - not cyclists put their bikes away in October!) and that having cyclists off the roads, will make drivers less used to dealing with them (i.e. giving appropriate space when passing). London drivers are much more cyclist-aware. than those in other parts of the country.

As cosmonaut says, the Vauxhall bit is still open but not for much longer so get any thoughts in fast.

Lastly, in terms of green light phasing, I did ask this at the public consultation meeting for the Vauxhall one since there's a stretch at the south end of the bridge that has quite a few lights. The spokesperson there did say that the lights would be phased so that cyclists could have a green wave as they went across that section - partly since they accept that space could be tight and there won't be room to have a bottleneck if each one goes red.

[bawdy-nan]

I'm a bit concerned about how I would get onto this at the Elephant (avoid the roudabout at all costs)but this looks like one of the best proposals I've seen for London cycling

[ruffers]

I spent the last couple of days in Utrecht where they have two way lanes much like this and many, many more cyclists. I saw no problems at all with them.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Take a look at the image on the east west link. That will just have pedestrians walking / standing all over it.

[Earl Aelfheah]

...and it's not wide enough to have bike going in both directions.

The north/south link shows Blackfriars bridge road. That section looks good, but check the rest out. Overall I think it's positive that there is a genuine effort to improve things though and this is our opportunity to feed into it and suggest improvements.

[LadyDeliah]

I agree, good start, but we should definitely add our ideas for improvements.

If they are spending that much money on this, I would have liked to see phased traffic lights that allow cyclists to go slightly before the motorised vehicles for cyclists who stay on the roads.

[jimbo1964]

Blackfriars up to Kings Cross is genuinely treacherous. Anything to make that section safer would be great.

[Townleygreen]

There are plans to radically improve the Elephant interchange which may help make this route more usable.

The info is here - again there was a consultation about that - the summary of what came up is at the end.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/elephant-and-castle

[James Barber]

Hi ultraburner,

I'm negative because the design ignores the problems the proposed junction designs are already causing when just junctions without the cycle lanes. I've given two examples of where these types of junctions already don't work. Do take a look during rushhours and then tell me I'm wrong.

The proposals appear to ignore the experiences of Amsterdam and Copenhagen. With all due respect to ruffers the expecation would be much higher cycle flows coming from further away on average (Utrecht is a much smaller less populated town). So many of the cyclists would expect to cycle further and faster (proven maximum time people are willing to commute) and be less likely to dawdle on such facilities. The scheme would work if it was only intended for low numbers of cyclists. But the intent which I applaud is to significantly boost cycling.

At the northern end of the route they're proposing one-way cycle lanes each side of the road, then merging them into one two-way cycle route in the middle and southern sections. It's muddled thinking. From my cycle campaigning experience once they blow a significant amount of money on a scheme if it's not right, unless it's clearly killing people, it won't be changed or corrected for a decade or two and we'll be stuck with it.

Please take a look at Churchyard Row/Newington Butts and Wellington/Waterloo Bridge junctions during evening rushhour. You'll see many cyclists waiting for the lights to change. They bunch rather than queue backwards to ensure they'll get across on the next green phase. Imagine this at every red light along the route blocking the opposing cyclists. If they do proceed with two-way segregation then they need to significantly widen the throat of each area cyclists will wait when the lights are red and the opposing receiving throat for cyclists to filter back down into a stream of regular proposed lane widths. This is done for motor vehicles so it isn't as if the traffic engineers don't understand the need for this.

Hi Too Good To Be True,

The research shows that cyclists will only go further for clear safety benefits. Avoiding the E&C roundabout is a very clear safety benefit. The proposed indirect route from E&C to St.George's appears no safer than the current bus and cycle one-way contraflow route directly along London Road.

Similar cycle parking research shows very few cyclsits will park their bicycles more than 20m from their destination. Hence all the fly bike parking you see.

[Earl Aelfheah]

One thing that strikes me about having a two way lane is that it's going to be pretty difficult for cars passing across it from side streets to spot people coming in both directions.

[Sue]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> One thing that strikes me about having a two way

> lane is that it's going to be pretty difficult for

> cars passing across it from side streets to spot

> people coming in both directions.

No different from spotting cars coming in both directions though surely? Or have I missed something?

[Earl Aelfheah]

I suppose you're right, it just seems more dangerous for some reason (probably my experience of 'not being seen' as a cyclist).

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just realised that last post is getting dangerously close to inviting a 'car v bike' digression. Not my intention. Please let's not go there.