losing Icelands

[Penguin68]

to put it bluntly, a family spending a million plus on a house are likely to have a load more disposable income than any number of long time local families on low incomes.

Actually, that very much depends on how much in debt they have had to go to 'afford' a 7 figure price for a house. Even assuming that they are trading up from a smaller property/ less desirable area, their disposable income in the short term is likely to be heavily constrained by mortgage repayments, particularly if they are also (as so many seem to be) picking up the costs of parenthood. I remember (luckily I did this at a time of high inflation, when my 'real' debt came down quite quickly), that the early years of property ownership, with small children, were not a time of unlimited disposable income, even though I would have been in a more privileged position than some - the equivalent of those being portrayed here.

Their aspirations (and their desire to be 'read' in particular way) may take them into the M&S camp, but they will (probably) be making other economies to do this.

Those with real disposable income in ED are those who bought some time ago, have paid down or off their mortgage and whose children are now (more) self supporting, I would suggest.

[Penguin68]

Otta

I don't think there is any hyperbole, and I expect you're right.

'Over the moon' - 'gutted' - both slightly over-egged phrases/ verbs - but I did mean it kindly. - I'd have gone with 'quite pleased' and 'quite upset' if I hadn't a rhetorical point to make.

[Otta]

Just the way I talk innit.

[DaveR]

"I remember (luckily I did this at a time of high inflation, when my 'real' debt came down quite quickly), that the early years of property ownership, with small children, were not a time of unlimited disposable income, even though I would have been in a more privileged position than some - the equivalent of those being portrayed here.......

Those with real disposable income in ED are those who bought some time ago, have paid down or off their mortgage and whose children are now (more) self supporting, I would suggest."

Possibly, but I suspect not. People buying in ED 10 - 20 years ago were able to do so on average London incomes - not at all the equivalent of anyone buying a family home now - and I seriously doubt there are many mortgage lenders handing out 1/2 million ? and more to folks who will be cutting back on their M&S shops to afford the repayments.

In any event, although the prevalence of house price discussions on here may suggest otherwise, only a little over 50% of households in ED are owner-occupied, the balance being fairly evenly split between private and social housing tenants:

http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do?a=7&b=6501600&c=East+Dulwich&d=14&e=7&g=6336662&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1410792592597&enc=1&dsFamilyId=2505

[Laur]

Such a shame - I popped in there first thing this morning & the staff cheered me up - it was quite refreshing to have a chat with friendly down-to-earth people.

[LondonMix]

DaveR, when you look at the businesses that are struggling for customers, its pretty clear what the demographics are like. Rich newcomers are not from a minority position closing down all of the working class outlets.

Again, the CPT turning into the Great Exhibition is a perfect example of why that argument makes no sense.

[DaveR]

"DaveR, when you look at the businesses that are struggling for customers, its pretty clear what the demographics are like. Rich newcomers are not from a minority position closing down all of the working class outlets.

Again, the CPT turning into the Great Exhibition is a perfect example of why that argument makes no sense"

Pubs are not really representative though, because the fundamentals of the market have changed so much.

The stats don't lie though. Here's another one - between 2001 and 2011 the proportion of ED households displaying at least one indicator of deprivation declined significantly, but from c.56% to 46% i.e. nearly half of all ED households still show statistical indicators that correlate with deprivation:

http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do?a=7&b=6501600&c=East+Dulwich&d=14&e=10&g=6336662&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1410795001822&enc=1&dsFamilyId=2520

http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do?a=7&b=6501600&c=East+Dulwich&d=14&e=10&g=6336662&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1410795001822&enc=1&dsFamilyId=169

It's easy to think this can't be true when new shops and restaurants are buzzing and new funky businesses opening all the time, but that's really my point. It is actually very likely that a minority (albeit a sizeable one)of local residents are supporting the majority of these businesses.

[DuncanW]

'The stats don't lie'

They can certainly be taken out of context to misrepresent.

[LondonMix]

DaveR, that is an intereseting point except the indicators of deprivation they are measuring are not economic deprevation.

For instance, a household in which quote "any person in the household has general health 'bad or very bad' or has a long term health problem.)" would have one indicator of deprivation.

Similarly, if the Household is in a shared dwelling, that automatically counts as a maker of deprivation as well!

While, I am under no illusion that ED is not full of only yuppies those stats are not an indication that 43% of people in ED are economically deprived.

[Alan Medic]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Is anyone really losing out? Iceland delivers,

> > and certainly that's even more convenient for

> OAPs

> > who rely on their goods.

>

>

> If they have a computer and the savvy to actually

> order.

I'm pretty sure they only deliver if you actually shop in the store. You can't order online.

[LondonMix]

Nope-- here is the website. You shop online and delivery is free

http://groceries.iceland.co.uk/

[edhistory]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> The stats don't lie though. Here's another one -

> between 2001 and 2011 the proportion of ED

> households displaying at least one indicator of

> deprivation declined significantly, but from c.56%

> to 46% i.e. nearly half of all ED households still

> show statistical indicators that correlate with

> deprivation:

>

> http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemi

> nation/LeadTableView.do?a=7&b=6501600&c=East+Dulwi

> ch&d=14&e=10&g=6336662&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=

> 1410795001822&enc=1&dsFamilyId=2520

>

> http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemi

> nation/LeadTableView.do?a=7&b=6501600&c=East+Dulwi

> ch&d=14&e=10&g=6336662&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=

> 1410795001822&enc=1&dsFamilyId=169

>

I think you need to check out the boundaries of East Dulwich Ward.

John K

[cordsm]

I'm a little bit sad about Icelands going, as I pop in regularly to buy bits & bobs. However...

Anyone who actually genuinely shops there MUST know that it's not doing particularly well on LL these days. Most times I go there, there is one counter open & only 1-2 people in the queue. For a high-street supermarket, that's not so good!

I would also distrust any argument that it's full of healthy food. Their products may be GM free, but aside from the (very good) frozen veg, fish & veggie products, it's pretty unhealthy stuff (I'm talking about their pre-prepared frozen meals)..

Very good when you're in need of cheap haribo & pringles though:)

[Mustard]

You have to spend ?35 or more for free delivery.

[kford]

I agree, it's great for cheaper staples, like crumpets, standard cheese and milk, but it's no Lidl or Aldi or even Asda for real savings and range.

[Loz]

Mustard Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You have to spend ?35 or more for free delivery.

And unlike the others, you can't bump up your spend with a few bottles of El Plonko.

[LondonMix]

Why is that a problem? Most of their food is frozen. If that's more than a weeks shop for someone reliant on Iceland for their main affordable shopping as many on here have claimed then they keep the extra in the freezer until needed.

[Mustard]

I would think a pensioner might not spend ?35 in a single shop, especially if they like to go out every few days for food. Not everyone has a big freezer.

[LondonMix]

Why would anyone need to shop every few days for frozen food? Even a normal sized freezer should be able to hold 35 quid of frozen food.

[Peckhamrye]

Deprivation? Really? There are lies, damned lies and statistics. Of course there is a population here who are struggling but get real people - compare these numbers to somewhere like Newham.

[Mustard]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why would anyone need to shop every few days for

> frozen food? Even a normal sized freezer should

> be able to hold 35 quid of frozen food.

Iceland sells more than frozen food, fruit, vegetables, tinned goods, cheese, meat, yogurt, milk, bread etc. Just because it is called Iceland doesn't mean people go in there just for frozen food. Lots of pensioners go out daily to shop for socialising and to get out of the house.

[LondonMix]

I have been there -- when my husband was a student he shopped at the Iceland in Peckham regularly until I broke him of the habit. It wasn't any more expensive to eat fresh food from Peckham. He simply didn't like cooking but I do, so I made our meals.

The name of the store is Iceland, so while they do sell other things, as the name suggests anyone who claims to do most of their shopping at Iceland would be buying a lot of frozen food.

If someone is only buying eggs and milk there, the closure might be disappointing but its unlikely to make a real difference to the cost of their weekly expenditure.

[LondonMix]

Canned food does not need to bought every few days as it also has a long shelf life and I freeze my bread anyway to preserve it.

I very much understand that pensioners need to get out to socialise but that can't possibly reason to make the signing of a new lease a political issue.

This whole thread basically claiming the actions of the freeholders are going to have vast swathes of ED on the breadline is very weak and more than a little ridiculous in my opinion.

As others have said, Iceland has not been very busy of late and there numerous chains that offer better value for basic produce. For those that like the unique frozen food selection, you can get it delivered if you can't access Peckham.

Mustard Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Why would anyone need to shop every few days

> for

> > frozen food? Even a normal sized freezer

> should

> > be able to hold 35 quid of frozen food.

>

> Iceland sells more than frozen food, fruit,

> vegetables, tinned goods, cheese, meat, yogurt,

> milk, bread etc. Just because it is called

> Iceland doesn't mean people go in there just for

> frozen food. Lots of pensioners go out daily to

> shop for socialising and to get out of the house.

[maxxi]

I use Iceland now and then - can't think of any reason i would ever use M&S food though.

Ready meals, sandwiches, confectionery and wine. Ready meals are full of salt, sugar and crap - even if it IS not just any crap, but M&S crap - and there won't be anything else that isn't already available locally either cheaper or better quality (or both). It's middle-brow trough-filler.

[Louisa]

M&S is food is genuinely no better than any mid-range supermarket. It's packaged and marketed for people to believe it is a premium product, and yes the price certainty is comparably premium, but the quality certainly is not. Iceland attracts people for basic produce is a damn site cheaper than the Co-op for bread, milk other basics etc. the older population of those on a restricted income who shop here will suffer to an extent, but it's about more than that. It's about the second largest retail spot on the lane falling to gentrification when as pointed out previously, the area still has a large proportion of the population close to the poverty line.

Louisa.