The Times article today (20/09/14) on The Charter and Jags?

[Mick Mac]

mikeb Wrote:

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> Sounds like VAT exemption could be reasonably

> material

>

> http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/CHARITIES/vat/intro.htm

>

> I think the trading profits would probably mean

> taxable profits, albeit there would be some future

> tax relief on the investments they make with those

> profits

>

> Not sure I would pay much heed to the historical

> point that these were charitable gifts - Alleyn's

> original gift predates the Civil War ...

The origin of the (15th century) charitable gift is important in it sets the original context of the school as a charity before the creation of state education.

The VAT exemption may be valuable - but its given to golf clubs etc so long as they are not for profit, so its the standard for not for profit organisations and not dependent on charitable status.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Private Schools drain the state system of talented teachers, pupils and parents. The state system loses a great deal when parents decide to withdraw their children, their energy and talents and instead invest them (along with considerable financial resources) in to competing with it. It's about giving your own child a competitive advantage in the world, by ensuring that all schools are not the same. Fair enough perhaps, but it seems disingenuous to pretend it's something else.

amydown Wrote:

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> Given the shortage of state school places, I think

> the more they can do to encourage quality

> education through the private sector, the better.

>

> People who then end up sending their kids to

> private school are, at the same time, relieving

> pressure on the state school. As thee parents

> don't get any tax deduction for education expenses

> coming out of their net pay, the state doesn't

> lose out and it provides more space in the state

> system.

>

> If private schools were to lose charitable status

> and therefore tax paying, for instance, the cost

> would get passed onto parents. That would have a

> huge knock on impact on already-stretched state

> system capacity.

[Earl Aelfheah]

amydown Wrote:

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> As thee parents don't get any tax deduction for education expenses

> coming out of their net pay, the state doesn't

> lose out and it provides more space in the state

> system.

Not quite true (Top public schools using charity status to help parents reduce tax bills): http://news.tes.co.uk/b/news/2014/02/20/wealthy-parents-save-on-tax-bills-thanks-to-private-schools-39-charitable-status.aspx

[Townleygreen]

keyhole said this: "I believe it was after they closed down William Penn ,There were no plans for another school ,,,the bottom part of their fields used to be used by Bessemer Grange,to take all the space when no one was using it or needing it,,ie Charter wasn't there yet,it is so sad that they charge local infant & secondary schools on the doorstep to use the swimming pools and sports facilities,,,and to stamp the foot of we are more important than you,they use Charter schools entrance gate as there car park entrance,I find it sickening and truly atrocious community cohesion ...I feel for The Charter kids,really unfair."

When William Penn closed it was immediately succeeded by Dulwich High School. There was a gap between DHS's closure and Charter opening whilst the buildings were upgraded.

I don't know about the fields though.

[Mick Mac]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Private Schools drain the state system of talented

> teachers, pupils and parents. The state system

> loses a great deal when parents decide to withdraw

> their children, their energy and talents and

> instead invest them (along with considerable

> financial resources) in to competing with it. It's

> about giving your own child a competitive

> advantage in the world, by ensuring that all

> schools are not the same. Fair enough perhaps, but

> it seems disingenuous to pretend it's something

> else.

>

Your point would make sense if it were true that Private Schools came in after state schools, hence draining a state system of already established quality.

However private schools pre dated the state school system by a number of centuries, hence it already had established its role providing quality education with quality teachers. That should not die away as a result of state education.

Was the state system ever intended to match up to the level of private education? probably it was not originally but has become an aspiration of the state system over time. Some state schools out perform some of the private schools - nothing wrong with that.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's not a case of which pre-dates the other. My post was a response to the suggestion that private schools in some way aid / support the state sector by their very existence. I don't necessarily have a problem with independent schools, but I do dislike the attempt to paint them as charitable organisations being run in the interests of all. They clearly are about providing an advantage to a minority of often, already privileged children. If you send your child to a private school in order to bestow such an advantage upon them, then you ought to be relaxed enough with that decision to declare your motivations without the double speak.

[LondonMix]

The motivation of the institution rather than the people who benefit from it deterimine if its a charity or not.

I don't disagree with the wider point you are making though

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's less about motivations than impacts. By bestowing huge educational advantage, primarily upon an already privileged group, the impact is divisive. Even if it's done in order offer opportunity to (a much smaller) number of kids from less privileged backgrounds, the over all effect is regressive. It's a perverse intervention if the aim is to help the disadvantaged, as the sum result is to create more (not less) disadvantage.

[LondonMix]

I agree the impact is perverse

[Mick Mac]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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It's not a case of which pre-dates the other.

Private Schools drain the state system of talented

> teachers, pupils and parents.

Private schools are the original schools, so the order does matter. State schools entered a world where private schools already existed so the battle and the problems you refer to were formed by the state schools creation.

[LondonMix]

I agree with that too.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> It's not a case of which pre-dates the other.

>

> Private Schools drain the state system of

> talented

> > teachers, pupils and parents.

>

> Private schools are the original schools, so the

> order does matter. State schools entered a world

> where private schools already existed so the

> battle and the problems you refer to were formed

> by the state schools creation.

Well there are some comments taken out of context. The point is that I was responding to the claim that private schools somehow aid the state system by their very existence. They clearly do not, the two compete for resources. Which came first may be interesting historically, but it isn't directly relevant to a debate about their place in today's society.

[stephent]

They do save the state from having to pay for the 8% of pupils that attend, plus bring in overseas investment for foreign pupils, etc. There are certainly some negatives too, but it's not as black and white as you make out.

[edhistory]

Was it JAGS that forced Dulwich Sea Cadets out of our area?

[Earl Aelfheah]

stephent Wrote:

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> They do save the state from having to pay for the

> 8% of pupils that attend, plus bring in overseas

> investment for foreign pupils, etc. There are

> certainly some negatives too, but it's not as

> black and white as you make out.

I don't think it's black and white and I admit that there is nuance as in any debate. On balance though, It's my belief that the system is divisive.

[stephent]

Unfortunately I think most areas where both the state and private industry share responsibility tends to lead to some conflict (eg private healthcare, national rail, etc), but I don't necessarily think that killing private schools would make things better, as there's be a raft of new unforeseen consequences...

Eg you could argue that the fact that DVIS has a tiny catchment area creates a different set of conflicts, in terms of house prices, easier to attract teachers, easier to raise donations from parents, etc

[keyhole]

It was a big gap with no plans for a school,parents in Dulwich,campaigned for a desperately needed secondary school..it was parent pressure,thank goodness,a private gap,mystery,it would just be nice of them to share and to show the children of both schools how helping each other makes you feel good..I'm sure the kids would be more than happy to share given a choice,it's strong red tape,still never say never!They also have 2 car parks on E.D Grove which they used until there new leisure centre was built,they did not need to have another entrance(car park)on Charter,s front entrance..how insensitive and ridiculous that this is acceptable it seems....not right..mafia D.E who woulda thought it!joking ye gotta laugh

[LS1234]

I get that the East Dulwich Forum is about, amongst other very useful things, having a good moan but you do need to get the facts straight. I was at Jags 35 yrs ago and they used the entrance by the Charter School (as was Willian Penn) then and they owned all the playing fields that they have now - they did not buy them when William Penn shut. Also, the Charter school was running a swim club at Jags after school last term as I saw them there every week and last term DVIS were using the pool for swimming lessons.

[savage]

LS1234 Wrote:

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> I get that the East Dulwich Forum is about,

> amongst other very useful things, having a good

> moan but you do need to get the facts straight. I

> was at Jags 35 yrs ago and they used the entrance

> by the Charter School (as was Willian Penn) then

> and they owned all the playing fields that they

> have now - they did not buy them when William Penn

> shut. Also, the Charter school was running a swim

> club at Jags after school last term as I saw them

> there every week and last term DVIS were using the

> pool for swimming lessons.

Which they charged the pupils for!

[EDLove]

> stephent Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > They do save the state from having to pay for

> the

> > 8% of pupils that attend, plus bring in

> overseas

> > investment for foreign pupils, etc. There are

> > certainly some negatives too, but it's not as

> > black and white as you make out.

Agree with stephent. Independent schools do give a lot back to the UK. One report from this year states that this includes:

- An annual contribution to GDP of ?9.5 billion ? larger than the City of Liverpool, or the BBC

- More than 227,000 FTE jobs in Britain supported by ISC (Independent Schools Council) schools ? one for every two ISC pupils

- More than ?3.6 billion in tax revenues flowing into the Exchequer each year

- Annual savings for the taxpayer of ?3.0 billion ? equivalent to building more than 460 new free schools every year - (because approximately 470,000 children who are entitled to state education do not take it up).

- The ISC's annual census for 2013 also states that the value of means-tested bursaries for almost 40,000 children exceeds ?300 million annually.

[edhistory]

All the right words:

http://planningonline.southwark.gov.uk/AcolNetCGI.exe?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeDocs&TheSystemkey=9553642

[Sqiggles]

I just came across this old thread, whilst searching for something else.

I went to Jags in the 70s (when William Penn was there) and I can confirm that it has the same playing fileds now as it has then. I have no idea why people thing jags bought the playing fields when William Penn closed - and, of course, there was no gap between William Penn and the Charter School.

I am also not sure how jags could make the sports facilities more available. For example, the swimming pool timetable means that the pool is very heavily used by jags and other schools during the school day and by the jags sports club (which anyone can join) and numerous other sports clubs and teams the rest of the time. The same goes for the astroturf pitches, for example. I have tried to hire lanes in the pool for my swimming club but there really is no space available.

There are also loads of courses for non-members - swimming lessons and kids football, for example. It is completely manic most weekends, and I would say it is serving the local community.

The position was indeed very different in the 70s, when the school facilitites were only used by the school, but that is no longer the case.

[rgutsell]

I agree rahrahrah!

ALL of the private schools around here were set up to provide education for people with reduced assets, but they have long become separatist institutions for elitist groups.

The case for tax exemptions etc has long been lost.

R Gutsell

[Melph91]

I haven't read the article (or all of this thread) but am a former jags girl and can confirm that jags grounds have belonged to them for over a century. The new AstroTurf next to the charters new AstroTurf was built while I was there and money was raised for it rather for the ground it was on.

The charitable status allows the school to use donations to fund scholarships and bursaries so that the school is not limited to those who can afford it

[legalbeagle]

Both of my children have been refused places at more than one local private school for the specifically stated reason that they have disabilities. Please note - NOT - because they failed to reach the required academic standard, they tested exceptionally, well including with educational specialists. They were turned down (or in some cases refused the chance to even sit the entrance test) because they have a different cognitive style of learning.

Three of the schools were stupid enough to put that in writing.

Five schools I've looked into so far also specifically reserve the right to remove a child if they are diagnosed with a disability while at the school.

Charitable?

My arse........ jumping through hoops to meet the legally required minimum more like........