Bakerloo line extension consultation open

[James Barber]

..and do point out that 2 stations proposed for each branch isn't enough. We need a statino every km as it is for the rest of the Bakerloo line.

So that owuld add one for Walworth Road and Denmark Hill.

The proposed stop at Peckham Rye would work well for one half of East Dulwich but one at Denmark Hill would work well for the other half of East Dulwich.

[egoode]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ..and do point out that 2 stations proposed for

> each branch isn't enough. We need a statino every

> km as it is for the rest of the Bakerloo line.

> So that owuld add one for Walworth Road and

> Denmark Hill.

> The proposed stop at Peckham Rye would work well

> for one half of East Dulwich but one at Denmark

> Hill would work well for the other half of East

> Dulwich.

I also said in my questionnaire that I thought the 2 proposed stations weren't enough, hopefully they listen. I also thought for the Old Kent Road branch they should try to ensure one of the stations is an interchange with Queen's Road Peckham station as that seems the most likely branch to be built as they can get money from developers and will ensure that the Clapham Junction Branch of the Overground has an interchange with the line and there's also all the trains to london bridge that go through there. Although I think the Peckham Rye branch would be the better option to serve current residents.

[eastdulwichhenry]

Agree with a lot of the sentiment here.

The Camberwell and Walworth Road areas are those that need this by far the most. There is no rail station at all for these densely populated areas. Old Kent Road I don't know about, but it does look like quite a big black hole on the map railwise as well. So I think the priority should be to build both branches, and worry about onward extensions later. This should take place well before "the 2030s"

As for onward route, for me Peckham Rye does not urgently need a tube line, it already has train service to Victoria, Clapham Junction and London Bridge, as well as occasional services to Blackfriars and St Pancras. Denmark Hill, similarly, whilst no longer having the London Bridge connection, is still quite well connected with the links to Victoria and Blackfriars. I don't see the value of the Herne Hill/Streatham link, those places are well connected already. If you're going to add an extra station then placing it further south, around East Dulwich or the Peckham Rye common would actually be more useful. We don't have any rail links to the west end at present.

Finally, on the idea of it going out to Bromley I really don't see the point of that. Tube lines are not well suited to long distance routes - getting to Heathrow by tube, for example, is a major schlep on the slow Piccadilly line. I think Bromley is well enough connected by rail, and the investment is far more needed closer to town.

[seemster]

I think the deadline is tonight or tomorrow - in case anyone is feeling positively societal this evening...

I've just filled it in (opting for the Camberwell / Peckham option of course :-)) but also suggesting more express buses could help, we have an X68 so why not an X12 and X171 and X36 and X436....

[LD929]

Did Southwark Council ever give a formal response to the proposed extension?

... Nervermind, I found it: http://www.southwark.gov.uk/news/article/1867/southwark_calls_for_bakerloo_line_extension_via_old_kent_road_and_camberwell_and_peckham

[cle]

Currently there is a maximum of 24 trains per hour. If split in half, that'd be 12tph on each branch - or one every 5 minutes. It's better than the current service, but I think would be pretty full early on.

Imagine a train every 5 minutes from Brixton!

Plus Elephant will see increased use through redevelopment (although arguably some who join the Bakerloo there today from the train or buses would be some of the new extension users?)

They would need to increase to 30tph at least. And then think of where to send them at the northern end, where 30tph would be overkill.

[bil]

LD929 Wrote:

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> Did Southwark Council ever give a formal response

> to the proposed extension?

>

> ... Nervermind, I found it:

> http://www.southwark.gov.uk/news/article/1867/sout

> hwark_calls_for_bakerloo_line_extension_via_old_ke

> nt_road_and_camberwell_and_peckham

Thanks for posting the link LD929

I thought the options were either Old kent road OR camberwell/peckham; not both. Southwark have supported the whole extension map.

Regardless the extension, if approved, will definitely go to Lewisham via New Cross Gate (not sure why it's New Cross gate and not New cross which is already on the route to Lewisham, Ladywell etc)

[Sweptwind]

You might find Lewisham's draft response interesting. Not seen what Bromley had to say about the project.

http://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/documents/s33030/Appendix%201%20Draft%20Bakerloo%20Line%20Extension%20Response.pdf

[Sweptwind]

... and interestingly, Lewisham have picked out a site on Old Kent Road roughly where the Toys R Us is, stating

'An analysis has been undertaken to consider the ideal location for a

new station on Old Kent Road. This has been done by overlaying

areas of Indices of Multiple Deprivation, 800m walking catchments,

development opportunity areas and site allocations, and demonstrates

the need for a new station in Southwark to the south of South

Bermondsey, as shown on the diagram. This supports the work

undertaken by Transport for London.'

[BrandNewGuy]

According to the Evening Standard transport correspondent on Twitter: "Bakerloo line extension via Camberwell and Peckham Rye more popular (64%) than Old Kent Rd (49%) - TfL consultation". For what it's worth.

[V511]

Can you clarify those percentages, BrandNewGuy? or do you have the link/source?

Just as they add up to 113%... ;)

[BrandNewGuy]

That was from the Twitter feed without a source. Couldn't find it on TFL or the Standard's website yet.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's quoted by @RossLydall

[Earl Aelfheah]

more info here: https://rosslydall.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/bakerloo-extension-via-camberwell-more-popular-than-via-old-kent-road/

[Earl Aelfheah]

There is currently a huge number of development sites around Camberwell Green. Had they been consolidated, the section 106 moneys may have contributed to either a reopened Camberwell station on the Thameslink line, or a future tube extension.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Boris Johnson said: ?It is fantastic that so many people are in support of the plans and I am determined to push ahead with them at pace. The extension has huge potential to breathe a new lease of life into south London?s ?opportunity areas?.?

The specific reference to 'opportunity areas' (i.e. 'Old Kent Road') is interesting.

[James Barber]

Not surprising with all parties promoting residents and employees and patients to respond to the consultation and more people likely to benefit i.e. live/work/visit the Camberwell area.

[LD929]

V511 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Can you clarify those percentages, BrandNewGuy? or

> do you have the link/source?

>

> Just as they add up to 113%... ;)

I think they can add up to 200% because in the consultation you had the choice of favouring both (not one or the other).

[davidq100]

James Barber's very own Simon Hughes has launched a petition for support for the extension too I notice. Can't do any harm I suppose (so long as it doesn't condem signatories to a tidal wave of future party political spam)

http://www.simonhughes.org.uk/bakerloo

[Sweptwind]

The consultation report has been published here:

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/bakerloo-extension/user_uploads/bakerloo-line-extension-consultation-report-final.pdf

[Siduhe]

The Responses to Issues Raised document has just been published. Have only skim-read but one interesting point is that the strongly support/support responses on the closed questions in favour of option 1b) (Camberwell) come out at 64% compared to 49% who support the option 1a) OKR route (as supported by the Mayor's office).

It's a similar breakdown for the open questions - 25% of respondents expressed a preference for extension Option

1b (via Camberwell and Peckham Rye), compared to 7% of respondents preferring Option 1a (via the Old Kent Road). Of the 32% of respondents who stated a preference of one route over the other, 78% expressed a preference for Option 1b.

TFL's take away from both the open and the closed questions combined is that "Of the respondents who indicated a strong preference for the Option 1 route, the majority (78%) preferred Option 1b via Camberwell and Peckham Rye compared to the remainder (22%) in favour of Option 1a via the Old Kent Road"

It was open to someone to support both routes in the consultation, but seems there's a pretty clear public preference for the Camberwell route.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/bakerloo-extension?cid=bakerloo-extension

[Earl Aelfheah]

I notice that TFL again highlight that "....in order for the Bakerloo line extension to be progressed, further development along the proposed route is required. It is unlikely the extension can happen without this new development."

I suspect that regardless of any consultation, the Old Kent Road route will happen. I am sure there are already developers rubbing their hands together at the thought of all the public money they can leverage and working out the best way to minimise any 'affordable' housing obligations.

[wulfhound]

I'd read this as:

Camberwell & Walworth are dense and mostly residential. Therefore lots of people live there & would like a Tube line.

Old Kent Road is mostly under-developed brownfield, warehouses and industrial units. Relatively few people live there, which means it's ripe for developers to flatten and rebuild. Big money wants the Tube line to go that way.

Can't help wondering if doing both is viable. Not every journey is radial - presumably quite a bit of what clogs up the A2 and Walworth Road is local-ish. Nice thing with the Tube is that high frequencies = short waits for connections = two trains for a fairly short trip is far less painful than National Rail or even Overground with its 15-30 minute service cycle.

[Righty]

What are the chances, do people think, of it going beyond Lewisham? I found that difficult to gauge from the report...

I agree though, that the funding for this will be pegged to development - suggesting the Old Kent Road route.

[rfolgado]

the Old Kent road option will certainly be cheaper to the government (similar to the northern line at nine elms, by partnering with developers) and spur regeneration of a ghastly no man's land area, which is a good thing.

However, they wont be able to ignore this consultation results'.

I hope they find a way a developing both options, but with the camberwell line going straight south to herne hill, dulwich or crystal palace; that would make more sense.