Trees-trees-trees in East Dulwich

[Lee Scoresby]

(Apologies if this toe-treads another thread)

In SE22 magazine Councillor Barber asks for ideas as to where to locate new saplings in the forthcoming cold planting season. The destruction of a money-puzzle in Crystal Palace Road (see that thread) reminds us that urban trees face enemies. Majorly, the reptilian-gnomes of probability-calculation employed by insurance companies. Risk, y'see, money. The dream world of insurers contains no trees and a lot of not-much else either. Bah!

A good moment to recall Robin Crookshank Hilton's funding efforts in 2006: Year by year these trees are transforming Lordship Lane into a leafy boulevard. It was fabulous this long summer. [Good grief, I said something nice about a Tory.]

So, new trees? Well, trees young and mature have been damaged and removed in Lordship Lane. On what basis was a plane tree removed from the front of what is now Gourmet Burgers some years ago? Was Southwark complicit? And did TfL (bringing you the cattle-trucking 484), who boast about their crack arborial trimming team, really have to remove that tree at the Ondine Rd stop?

Whatever the truth, other LL sites simply need their lost trees replacing.

And how about totally re-thinking the Goose Green roundabout? From its sad sub-Edwardian flummery to a number (how many?) of new trees. So that in a few years it becomes a sort of extension of the Goose Green canopy. Cars turning left from Grove Vale will, as it were, seem to cut through a corner of the copse.

(Once told by a Southwark urban planning consultant [sic] that East Dulwichians would die at the burning barricades to the last yummy-mummy rather than seeing that roundabout altered. Which I never heard elsewhere. Common sense says its needs rethinking, probably slight re-shaping and downsizing. Anyway, another topic).

Tree thoughts from other EDF'ers? Which will presumably assist James Barber.

Lee Scoresby

[Nigello]

I would love a mini-copse on the GG roundabout: it's a great idea.

There are pits aplenty that need filling: at least three on Goodrich Road and others that I've passed.

Which person to lobby? I got trees planted near where I live just by ringing up the council and asking. I think the person in the job would be different, though.

[Earl Aelfheah]

How about replacing all the painted bollards (painted to look like plants) out the front of the shops on Forest Hill Road, with actual trees?

[edcam]

The Goose Green roundabout would be a really bad idea for visibility for motorists, cyclists and pedestrians.

[Earl Aelfheah]

how about planting a large tree directly in front of the entrance to Foxtons. Or a very thick bramble bush.

[gedwina]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How about replacing all the painted bollards

> (painted to look like plants) out the front of the

> shops on Forest Hill Road, with actual trees?

Love this idea

[intexasatthe moment]

Good post Lee.

I understand from Robin C H that a madness similar to that which requires new dropped kerbs to have double yellow lines extending 2 metres across neighbouring properties ,also requires newly planted trees to have a metre square tree pit .

So planting new trees is going to be tricky except where very wide pavements exist .

Not East Dulwich but I'm very upset by the work ( carried out as seems usual in Southwark in summer when the trees were in full leaf } by the extreme pollarding to the trees in Highshore Rd which used to provide some softening of the view of acres of asphalt of the Academy playground .https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4711546,-0.0738415,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s6nqRVLBF2FpYSb5oODOaFg!2e0

[James Barber]

Hi Lee, everyone,

My request in SE22 was for people to tell me where in East Dulwich they'd like to see new trees.

I've been assured by council officers that empty tree pits will be replanted.

We're looking for extra new sites.

We've been doing this since 2007. Last count 220 trees. Imagine East Dulwich without those 220 trees.

Anyway you can put your thought onthis thread or email me and I'll do my best ot make it happen.

Hi ITATM,

Am trying to get that daft 1.0m x 1.0m requirement for new tree pits changed.

So in a feeling of optimism please don't limit ideas to wide pavements.

[Lee Scoresby]

Thanx for the positive responses. Please keep posting specific ED locations for planting or re-planting. Nigello asks, Whom to talk to? I did start this thread in response to Councillor Barber's call for suggestions in spending his 10K tree budget in the January-March period (brrr). So it would be useful if Cllr Barber could acknowledge these at some point.

However and also . . . other fundamental issues have been raised:

I caused upset by mocking the present planting at the GG roundabout, which replaces a crappier situation atop the hillock there, and which required the inevitable grinding campaign by local activists against the nameless-faceless ones who rule us. The tree is a Chilean wine palm (Jubaea chilensis) - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubaea. And see some fine mature examples at Google Images. It can grow to 25m (over 80 feet). I have apologised (elsewhere) for the upset, but what do I take from this?:

- Why in a properly-functioning democracy should any attempt to challenge, alter, prevent or initiate anything in one's 'hood require energetic and spirited locals (like Robin CH, also) to spend month after month battling the hostility, arrogance, secrecy, incompetence, laziness, undeclared agendas, and commercial self-interest of those who hold their positions supposedly in our name, and their contractors? Local democracy should be a real, active, in-built, fine-grained, day-to-day thing. Improvements should be collaborative, transparent, easy, and swift. Another example is cited by Intexas: husbandry (even pollarding) of urban trees is unavoidable, but why should these contractors be able to run amok, leaving rows of lollipop-trees (species name: The Insurers' Delight), without residents having a say? In the case Intexas cites, I would suggest undue concern by Southwark officers to Harris-the-Carpet-King and his burgeoning private empire of dodgy 'academies'. "Not a single leaf in your grounds? Certainly sir, certainly!" - sort of thing.

- Apparently, visibility beyond the roundabout was crucial in choosing this species. But I disagree with my correspondent elsewhere, and edcam above: seeing BEYOND the central structure is just not an issue. Because a vehicle approaching the gyratory there slows and gives way. All the driver has to see clearly is traffic already circulating, as well as vehicles at or approaching the feed-in road to his or her right. Anyway, if traffic planners were that bothered about this, they could long-ago have lowered the base level of the central island.

- Likewise, absence of leaf-drop or any need for husbandry favoured the palm. But again, to me, this is just municipal do-nothingness; a kind of defeatism.

I actually think that whole junction needs improving. Perhaps I'll start a separate thread about this, if the hand-of-god-himself (AKA the moderator) will let me have 2 on the go.

Intexas hints that the one-metre tree pit requirement is one of those innocent-seeming maximising requirements whose real aim is prohibitory. Mistrust between We, the People, and our 'masters', is pervasive, no? Urban trees do indeed require proper bedding and a simple watering system. But this 'pit' can then be covered, with a stoney mulch or even some sympathetic form of grill or paving. As Brits can discover when they walk the streets of cities in Europe and elsewhere, this is all perfectly possible without the hooha and neanderthalic-resistance that arises here in the UK.

Lordship Lane, for example, actually has a very narrow pedestrian passage. Southwark relies (often unthinkingly in my view) on each commercial property there not enclosing its curtilage (the open land at the front which it owns). But for pity's sake, these things are entirely solvable: they just require energy, imagination, and public authorities willing (as so rarely in Britain) to advance the public interest rather than bowing to the commercial one.

And don't even start me on dropped curbs . . . or 'zones of ambiguity' and all the box of toys that planners and traffic managers witlessly inflict on us in London.

Forest Hill Road would certainly benefit from plantings. Not sure if Cllr Barber's purview (and budget) go onto Peckham Rye, but there are damaged, dead and removed trees there from the great works of several years ago, noticeably in the new avenues leading in from several gates. Being in series, the absence of a tree is very evident, like a tooth-gap in a mouth.

More SPECIFIC locations? And do we have your ear, Cllr Barber?

Lee Scoresby

[rch]

Thanks for the name check, Lee and In Texas, as local trees are one of my passions! I've been working together with the tree dept on local planting long before I was ever elected a cllr and have gone back to working with them under the StreetLeader scheme now that I'm not a cllr anymore. The Lordship Plane scheme was actually funded by a CGS bid for 40 plane trees that I submitted in 2005... I think people now take the trees for granted, but it's transformed the area. It still needs a bit of tweaking because the ginkgos aren't very happy, but that's easy to fix.

One of the things I'm doing now as a volunteer is physically checking out each empty pit in person to ensure that info on the spreadsheets is accurate, so any info on empty pits would be greatly appreciated as it's taking me forever walking around two wards on foot... maybe we should start a new thread specifically to note empty tree pits? One of the problems with replanting is that locations have dropped off of the master spreadsheet over the years as the tree dept has been reconfigured, so we almost need to create a master list from scratch.

As with most public realm projects, the policies around tree pits and planting is mind-boggling, but I've got the hang of how it works over the years and how to get the best compromise. I share James' optimism that the 1m x 1m treepit requirement will get adjusted for Dulwich, fingers crossed.

In addition to James' planting budget, I have also submitted a CGS bid specifically to create new tree pits in Village and ED wards, as the replanting budget doesn't address this extra cost.

Lee... the palm tree on the GG roundabout was heavily consulted on at the time and therefore is another compromise between different users' needs... the sightlines are important to bus users as well as TfL as one can actually see buses coming towards the roundabout from quite a distance away while waiting at bus stops. I remember that the tree officer at the time spent a huge amount of time sourcing a tree of the agreed parameters, which is how we ended up with that particular palm (which is better than nothing).

Some of the trees on Lordship Lane were actually killed by salt poisoning during a snowy winter and couldn't be replaced where shops built out tables on their curtilage which doesn't leave enough room for pedestrian access on the public pavement if a tree is installed. When Lordship Lane is salted, you'll often see me out with my trowel digging salt out of the pavements so that it doesn't murder any more trees.

I could talk about trees for days, but I'll stop here for now...

[intexasatthe moment]

" undue concern by Southwark officers to Harris-the-Carpet-King and his burgeoning private empire of dodgy 'academies'. "Not a single leaf in your grounds? Certainly sir, certainly!" "

Unusually ( for me ) that aspect hadn't crossed my mind . But now that it's been raised .... odd that the one tree behind the Academy fence and on " their " ( given to them by Southwark on a long lease ) land is already dead .

[Lee Scoresby]

RCH (for it is she), happy to namecheck you and more . . . "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy" . . . Your post is utterly inspirational, thanx for that. Please start another thread - I for one, will be happy to get my head round the Southwark bumf and BS, and do some chilly, dank November legwork. Tho why Southwark isn't doing this, and keeping its data up to date . . ? - this is rather my point about local authorities, and those who scuttle along in 'em.

Tweaking Unhappy Gingkos - saw them play Hammersmith in '91 - bit of a rubbish gig to be honest - Village Tree Pits were so much better . . . wodeva

Trees in the Vil-AAAGE I don't myself care about - the bankers and poshies can fend for themselves, battling that estate. The Rye side I am interested in.

About the big ol' Jubaea, sure it was consulted on, sure it was a good solution within the bogus parameters, sure good people were involved (they usually are). None of which changes my point or my mind. It would have been more sensible to re-engineer that entire junction and surround.

'Sightlines' I don't accept for a Noo-York minute: I have stood (for geological aeons) at most of the bus stops round here. The visibility or not of approaching buses is a matter of pure chance - I can't see that it ever enters TfL's calculations whatsoever. What TfL could do is complete its presently-random rollout of 'Countdown' signage instead of blythly assuming we all have iphone apps (the 2014 answer to every-little-ding/ding).

And now, y'see, RCH, you refer to "fingers crossed" about tree-pit sizes, and this just presses my button to the max. Is the UK a democracy or is it not? Why must we be "optimistic", hoping, praying, pleading, lighting votive candles, self-flagellating, fasting, offering virgin sacrifices . . . in the hope for the 'right' outcome from some little nameless-faceless suits in a room somewhere, on a date unknown. This is the trap that local campaigners do leap into. It's medieval, it's the vile dictatorships of other, 'undeveloped' (hoho) parts of the world, it's the papal enclave of cardinals - what it AIN'T is democracy. Uncross fingers, GET ANGRY - DEMAND. These streets and spaces are ours, these lives are ours.

2 Qs: How do urban centres in other countries reconcile winter salting and roadside trees? And: why is it you, dear RCH, out remediating this problem rather than paid Southwark operatives? We come back to this same issue, over and over again. I do not despise your passion and energy, quite to the contrary; I do despise and despair of the lethargy and naysaying of 'our' institutions.

Anyway, big respect again, sho dat,

Lee Scoresby

[Penguin68]

Clearly roads need to be salted, and equally clearly, when this is required, it is during a dormant season when water is not so readily being taken up or needed by trees - couldn't the council protect the areas round trees adjacent to frequently salted roads - say from beginning December to end January - sacking or plastic would do, pegged into the ground, which would then keep most of the salt away from the trees? In this way elves helping the trees wouldn't have to work so hard or so desparately - and presumably the cost of so doing would readily be offset by the savings of not having to fell/ replace dead trees. Maybe it could be done at the same time as the tawdry Christmas decorations in e.g. LL were being installed, when street operatives were already out and about?

[edcam]

There are no taller trees on GG roundabout for good reasons, practical and aesthetic. Fantastic that there are plans for lots of trees elsewhere though.

[kristen]

Please can some thought be given to the size/future growth of new trees planted.

I am so fed up of seeing beautiful trees turned to sawdust because they're considered too big - or their roots are suspected of causing property damage

It's sort of what's being suggested here but it would help to plant trees were they're wanted and local residents look after them - rather than choosing areas - so have an adopt a tree(s)scheme for a street/area/businesses - on my road I'd love some edible fruit trees - cooking apples, etc (but I'm not sure if these are the best practically) Silver birch are supposed to be amazing at absorbing pollution they did a study recently at Lancaster university - but again I don't know how practical these are in terms of size/grwoth

[Penguin68]

Silver birch have the merit that they are shallow rooted (which reduces the amount of damage they could do) and that they do not grow too large (girth) - disadvantages are that they are drought delicate (shallow roots mean that they cannot burrow deep for water) so may need care in the summer, and that they have a life-span of no more than 80-90 years, and can be less. They are also not suitable for pollarding (if anything, they are coppice trees - an entirely inappropriate management system for a street scape). However they have, as indicated, a number of merits, not least that their canopies are more sparse than e.g. London Plane trees, so are less likely to plunge adjacent windows into gloom. And they are, or can be, very pretty.

[cjanker]

I have a massive (30m) but sadly dying pear tree in my back garden. This will need taking out in the next few years.

Now, I appreciate that this thread is largely about introducing trees where they can be seen by the public but I contend that birds and animals need more than what is planted by our busy roads. And it is their natural interests which I contend should be the primary driver of a council backed tree-planting policy, rather than our own aesthetic interest (although I think we are quite entitled to want the area to look nice too!).

So Mr Barber - notwithstanding the fact that it can't be seen from the road, I wonder, would the council be willing as part of this scheme to help remove and replace my pear tree in the interests of maintaining the neighbourhood ecology? This is not to suggest I want all my gardening done for free - I'm just interested to know where the boundaries are when it comes to providing mature arborial habitat in our area. I have much more than 1m by 1m than I can handle and would very gladly have something of similar size again (although of course I might have to wait another 50 years)!!

[kristen]

@cjanker - the woodland trust have a scheme where you can apply for a community tree planting pack

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/plant-trees/in-your-community/ - I tried to attach the FAQs but they're too large - they're on the site though

@Penguin68 - that's really interesting to hear - lots of adv & disadv to silver birches - maybe more suitable for a school/nursery/park than street planting? I wonder whether 80/90 years life span is an adv though as urban spaces change so much that it might be that a different type of planting/species of tree is needed then.

I have a friend who is a coppicer and stone mason and remember him telling me how carpenters/shipbuilding families used to look after trees for generations - growing the branches into just the right shape for the hull of a ship etc. Would be lovely to think of some kind of similar stewardship of trees in urban spaces - obvs not for shipbuilding but in terms of our local environment - so when families move out the care is handed over etc etc

Possibly London Wildlife Trust could advice regarding the suitability of tree species they have a project called Living landscapes which I think includes creating wildlife corridors in urban spaces - there might be certain trees that are needed in this area for wildlife - or to support the local ecosystem - or certain ones that although lovely aren't that great - http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/living-landscape/schemes

Outside of the council scheme would anyone be interested in applying for a community tree pack with me? I need to read the FAQs first! as might not be eligible but you can get up to 400 trees for free

[Penguin68]

maybe more suitable for a school/nursery/park than street planting?

There is a mature silver birch growing in a (narrow) front garden in Underhill Road just north of Dunstans road on the right as you drive towards Barry - it seems to be doing quite well and would give an idea as to what a street planting would look like. I think it would work, unless greater arboreal experts than I know better (shallow rooting and drought may be an issue).

However they are probably most pretty planted in stands together - so that would suggest a nursery/ park location.

[tiddles]

Lee - couldn't agree with you more regarding the faceless suits who make their random decisions- will they be in a good or bad mood today ? thumbs up or thumbs down?

I appreciate that decision making is often much more complicated than it would seem but you certainly struck a cord with me??

keep up the good work

[missmoneypenny]

Goodrich Road please! It's one of the longest roads leading off of Lordship Lane but also one of the most neglected (new surfacing much needed on pavements and road itself).

So please give us some greenery to line the road : )

[david_carnell]

Nutbrook Street in SE15 (just off Adys Road) is completely lined with silver birch and jolly lovely they look too.

All hail the urban tree.