Warning...When Using Sainsbury's Car Park

[FatherJack]

Over the past two weeks I have received two fines from Horizon Parking Services, they manage the car park for Sainsbury's.

The first claimed my car was parked there for 6 hours and the second ticket for 9 hours. This has happened because I went to the store twice on both days, but outside of their no return within an hour. Their system isn't registering my car leaving the first time and arriving the second time.

Whilst I'm told these fines carry no weight in a court of law, it's not always easy proving or remembering for that matter what you were doing 10-14 days earlier.

Sainsbury's have authorised the cancellation of both tickets, as I had receipts and my address is local, so I wasn't using car park for easy access to train station or Kings.

[Robert Poste's Child]

There have been past threads on this. I think the general advice was that the tickets are unenforceable, classified in law as an invoice than a fine, and if it happens again the best thing is to ignore them and let them pursue you if they want to.

[lilolil]

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

This covers a lot of these sort of fines and how to deal with them!

[lilolil]

The law has changed and the advice is not to ignore them but to argue your case. There is a lot of free useful advice on that forum and people who are willing to help draft letters and appeals.

[lilolil]

And this

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5090871&highlight=horizon

[Mustard]

How has the law changed?

[lilolil]

Unless you are in Scotland or Northern Ireland the advice is not to ignore. The law has changed as outlined in this thread on money savings expert

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

[Mustard]

I'd like to know why the DVLA give out addresses for registration numbers.

I have had several letters re parking in the Lidl car park, and never acknowledged any of them. No action was taken.

Would also like to know ab out the Morrison's car park in Camberwell. They have threatening signs up all over the place.

[Seabag]

Re Morrisons in Camberwell. Don't use the car park, but park on the road just before, if you can

Car park is privately opperated, the road is local authority

[Mustard]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Re Morrisons in Camberwell. Don't use the car

> park, but park on the road just before, if you

> can

>

> Car park is privately opperated, the road is local

> authority

Was wondering about that, however the Lidl car park is also privately operated but they don't have the ticket machines like Morrisons does. Just wondered if they could enforce, or if it is all for show.

[kford]

Just bin them, and any other correspondence from repo-type companies, which, surprise, surprise often have the same PO Box address as the parking thieves.

[david_carnell]

Just for anyone who gets hit with a fine by these cowboys....

I got one a couple of months back when I'd used the car park for about 15mins more than the 3hrs allowed. They tried to claim ?75 and sent a couple of threatening letters.

I downloaded a template from Money Saving Expert (happy to post here or PM if anyone wants it) and shortly received a reply back that they were cancelling the fee in light of my appeal.

They are chancers and will do/day anything to scare you into coughing up. Don't do it.

[david_carnell]

Someone PM'd me for the template but for ease of use I'll c&p it below.

Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is extravagant and unconscionable when compared to local parking charges issued by the Council so cannot be justified.

b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is to deter.

c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.

d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations.

e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.

Your clients should be thoroughly ashamed of the shoddy way you treat consumers visiting their premises. Parking firms like yours fail to demonstrate even a basic understanding of customer service. The reputation of your business model appears to be more akin to a protection racket than 'parking management'. The public have no faith in the private parking industry and, as far as I have seen, your firm has not shown itself to be any different than the ex-clampers with whom you share a membership.

The purpose of this communication is:

1. Formal challenge

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer

The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for responding to your junk mail dressed up to impersonate a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed ?15. Therefore, this is a formal ?drop hands? offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at ?18 per hour plus my out-of-pocket expenses and damages for harassment.

3. Notice of cancellation of contract

I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered by you and certainly was not expressly agreed. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - IAS or POPLA, then the contract ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation & Additional Payments) Regulations apply now to every consumer contract, save for a few exemptions, which parking contracts are not. Following the EU Consumer Rights Directive, express consent must be obtained for consumer contracts now - not implied consent. You have failed to meet these requirements and you did not serve the driver with the terms by durable medium.

By replying to the challenge you are acknowledging receipt and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above.

I have kept proof of submission of this challenge. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.

Yours faithfully,

[Tigres Pride]

Thanks for this David. Have saved a copy to my PC. You never know when/if it may come in handy.

[edhistory]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I got one a couple of months back when I'd used

> the car park for about 15mins more than the 3hrs

> allowed.

3+ hours shoppimg?

John K

[david_carnell]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> david_carnell Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I got one a couple of months back when I'd used

> > the car park for about 15mins more than the

> 3hrs

> > allowed.

>

> 3+ hours shoppimg?

>

> John K

No.

[Jeremy]

The problem is, if the deterrent of the fine proves ineffective, they'll start using some sort of gate/token system. That wouldn't be good...

[DaveR]

There was quite a lengthy thread on this before, and I should say again that these charges are not unenforceable per se, but rather they are very often not enforced. The real driver behind this is the desire of owners of car parks (sometimes the retailer itself, sometimes the commercial landlord) to subcontract management of parking either at no cost to themselves or even with the benefit of getting some revenue from it. However, I suspect that this business model may be bust, at least in part because the retailers have been unwilling to allow their subcontractors to resort to legal action on a mass basis, which fatally undermines the model. The best policy is probably still to refuse to pay and to dispute any liability on both factual and legal grounds, but don't think that you could never be pursued for the charge.

[JohnL]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> david_carnell Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I got one a couple of months back when I'd used

> > the car park for about 15mins more than the

> 3hrs

> > allowed.

>

> 3+ hours shoppimg?

>

> John K

It takes me 2 hours to shop there + 30 mins in Starbucks.

I suppose you could hit 3 hours if you had a whole family.

Or am I dawdling ?

[Jeremy]

JohnL - sounds like you are an incredibly slow shopper. I don't enjoy the experience, so make a list and get in and out asap.

3hrs is a very generous limit, why not just stick to it? Or is this whole thing just about "sticking it to the man"..

[edcam]

I'm inclined to agree that although these parking companies are very dodgy, they have time limits for a reason. They're not free public car parks.

[david_carnell]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL - sounds like you are an incredibly slow

> shopper. I don't enjoy the experience, so make a

> list and get in and out asap.

>

> 3hrs is a very generous limit, why not just stick

> to it? Or is this whole thing just about "sticking

> it to the man"..

It's whatever you want it to be Jeremy. If you ever receive a fine, feel free to pay it.

If on the other hand you feel ?75 is exorbitant for a 15min overstay then feel free to use the template I used successfully.

I'm not defending how or why I use Sainsburys car park.

[JohnL]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL - sounds like you are an incredibly slow

> shopper. I don't enjoy the experience, so make a

> list and get in and out asap.

>

> 3hrs is a very generous limit, why not just stick

> to it? Or is this whole thing just about "sticking

> it to the man"..

I am, I'm afraid. I look at the dates on everything,

I never have a list so I get distracted. I have to go

down every aisle too.

[Ms Blueberry]

An article on fighting unfair parking tickets - I learned a couple of things:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets?utm_source=MSE_Newsletter&utm_medium=hiya&utm_term=12-Aug-15-v4&utm_campaign=reclaim&utm_content=35