Aircraft noise -

[pop9770]

Oh and the fanning in of aircraft happens currently only it's not constantly alternating.

They just don't care because there are no benefits to Heathrow.

There's no increase in risk .. What increase could there be ?

[rendelharris]

pop9770 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> There's good reason Croydon airport was closed why

> should Heathrow be any different?

Croydon closed because there was no room to lengthen the runways, nothing to do with noise.

The Thames estuary airport would be totally impractical for myriad reasons, some of which are that it's three times more likely to suffer from fog than Heathrow, that flight plans would be next to impossible given the proximity of Schipol, that it would destroy environmentally sensitive sites, that there would be a massively increased risk of bird strike...oh and there's the small matter of the wreck of the SS Richard Montgomery, which has been lying there since 1944 with 1400 tons of explosive on board, which nobody has yet worked out how to remove!

I personally choose not fly and would rather, for many reasons, air travel was more severely rationed, but TE airport really won't work.

[pop9770]

Really OH well no solution then.

Just noticed the flight path has moved a mile north from earlier this evening still getting on my nerves!

[rendelharris]

pop9770 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Really OH well no solution then.

>

> Just noticed the flight path has moved a mile

> north from earlier this evening still getting on

> my nerves!

The only real solution, I fear, is for people who can afford it to take responsibility for their environmental footprint and not continue to regard half a dozen continental or inter-continental holidays and mini-breaks a year as a natural right, but I'm not holding my breath!

[Lowlander]

Cardelia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lowlander Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The fact remains that London is unique in

> having

> > it's biggest airport in a foggy location, with

> > prevailing winds dictating flightpaths over the

> > city affecting the majority of residents.

> >

> > You won't find this situation in any other

> major

> > Western city.

>

> Well, Chicago frequently has fog rolling in from

> Lake Michigan and even though the approach path is

> generally over the lake, a lot of northern Chicago

> suffers terribly from aircraft noise. Boston is

> very similar, with fogs rolling in from the

> harbour and north Boston suffering from noise. In

> North America, off the top of my head, there's

> also LA, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New York

> (Newark), Toronto and Washington DC, all of which

> have some/most of their urban areas underneath the

> flight path and can suffer from severe fog delays.

> Heathrow's problems are not unique to Heathrow.

I mentioned the fog but really it's irrelevant to this argument. Do North American cities have the same scale of noise problem - for instance the equivalent of Chelsea/Westminster/Putney/Barnes/Battersea etc. being under?

From what I can gather, there is a problem but not on the same scale as the London.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/nyregion/engaging-in-a-softer-conversation-about-the-roar-from-new-yorks-airports.html?_r=0

[rendelharris]

The thing with a lot of major American cities - Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco etc - is that they're right on the seaboard and so can bring the planes in and send them out over the ocean, with airports right on the edge of the sea, and of course a lot of the cities in the heartland have so much open space around them they can afford to have the airports well out of town with space for massive highway infrastructure to whisk passengers swiftly into town, not a privilege we have on our little island.

[pop9770]

Nonsense

Heathrow doesn't need to exist

We could easily find another location

The problem is some landed lord would need to free up the land

So it'll never happen !

Little people under the ruling class as ever have a look on google earth if you think I'm wrong.

You're so naive.

Fact is there's plenty of land

[rendelharris]

pop9770 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nonsense

> Heathrow doesn't need to exist

> We could easily find another location

>

> The problem is some landed lord would need to free

> up the land

>

> So it'll never happen !

>

> Little people under the ruling class as ever have

> a look on google earth if you think I'm wrong.

>

>

>

> You're so naive.

>

>

> Fact is there's plenty of land

That's right, I'm naive, whereas your expectation that any government would spend maybe ?100 BN on a new airport outside London, plus maybe another ?50 BN on rail and road infrastructure connections, plus make 76,000 people working at Heathrow redundant because you're bothered by aircraft noise is entirely realistic.

I do believe it's a genuine problem for you though, as your posts on here prove it does make you unnecessarily confrontational and aggressive.

[pop9770]

Me Aggressive ?

I'm not the one telling you to accept a discomfort or mental abuse.

[rendelharris]

pop9770 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Me Aggressive ?

>

> I'm not the one telling you to accept a discomfort

> or mental abuse.

You are however the one who's called those who have courteously disagreed with you (deep breath) "thin skinned," "really sad," "blinkered," "odd," "morally [un]acceptable," "defeatist," "sad" (again), "odd" (again), "complicit," "insulting," and "naive." Which is quite aggressive.

I'm genuinely sorry that aircraft noise causes you such discomfort, but it's really not mental abuse.

[pop9770]

I have that's true because that is what they are.

The title is about aircraft noise.

If you / they don't have a problem then why on earth tell me?

You're just windup merchants. Please go away.

Poppy xx

[rendelharris]

pop9770 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have that's true because that is what they are.

>

> The title is about aircraft noise.

>

> If you / they don't have a problem then why on

> earth tell me?

>

> You're just windup merchants. Please go away.

>

> Poppy xx

Conversely, if you have a problem why tell us? It's called a discussion board I believe - for discussing things. That means, much as you don't like it, some people may disagree with you.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Pop9770

Are you the reincarnation of Fazer71 (who no longer exists as a user)?

I ask because your posts are very similar to each other ?

I agree with rendel it's a two way discussion forum with those who have one point POLITELY discussing it with those who have a different view.

Sadly not everyone agrees with you but that doesn't make their point of view wrong

[Elphinstone's Army]

Pop is a girl? Poppy you sound deranged.

It hurts my head reading your posts.

[pop9770]

It's not a different view.

It's airplane noise.

Now I'm insulted with being deranged and someone else.

I've had enough of this abuse I have to suffer the noise not this.

Rotten discussion.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Pop9770

I'm just pointing out that your style of writing is very similar to the poster formally know as fazer71, who incidentally stopped posting on here shortly before your first post, hence why I asked the question.

It is a different view, your view is aircraft noise is a blight , mine is that it isn't that much of a problem and s necessary side effect of modern travel.

I guess we could all go back to airships and slow travel and paddle steamers as a mode of transport but that's not going to get you to the Canary Islands or where ever else it is you want to go on holiday now is it ?

[Penguin68]

I have previously said on this or a sister post that it is possible to address issues where particular stimuli become points of obsession through psychological supports, such as CBT and Mindfulness. It seems clear that whilst some people find the airplane noise virtually intolerable others (in the same area) do not. Ways of changing your relationship with that noise may be helpful. Where everyone finds a stimulus impossible to live with, then the stimulus should be addressed, but where only some do the most 'economic' solution might be one which addressed the sufferer, not the immediate cause. Just as phobias (such as arachnophobia) can be addressed through CBT, so your relationship to aircraft noise may also be addressable (and no, I am not saying that you are 'mad' or deranged, simply that your relationship to airplane noise, the way in which it captures your attention so that it become unreasonably intrusive may be something which psychological support might be able to address).

[pop9770]

Look I've come here to vent my anger and frustration with likeminded sympathetic fellow sufferers.

Not to debate with people who don't suffer.

I'm not wasting my time on this it's increasing my anger and frustration levels through such discussion.

If everyone was affected then it would be fixed clearly.

Yes maybe some good psychiatry will help me thank you.

[Penguin68]

Yes maybe some good psychiatry will help me thank you.

Psychological support or psychotherapy might help; I'm by no means sure that a psychiatrist would be of any great assistance - you might find anger management could be helpful as well.

[pop9770]

#sarcasm

[rendelharris]

Poppy, without wanting to add fuel to the flames, I think people have generally been pretty polite in trying to point out why aircraft noise is just one of those things to which, at present, there's no real solution, living as we do in one of the world's most populous, popular and richest cities. Personally as someone who chooses not to fly I would applaud any measures to cut down on air travel, but then I'd applaud measures to cut down on car travel as well (something which bothers me far more) but neither are going to happen any time soon. I do hope you find a way to make peace with something which is clearly genuinely bothering you as, rightly or wrongly, it's going to be around for a long long time (even if they started building Boris' wrongheaded and impractical estuary airport right now, it wouldn't be functional before 2027 even without the inevitable overruns).

Anyway, as we're enjoying several sundowners in the garden tonight it seems we're off the flightpath this evening, so I hope you can enjoy your Saturday night.

Peace,

Rendel

[Lowlander]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have previously said on this or a sister post

> that it is possible to address issues where

> particular stimuli become points of obsession

> through psychological supports, such as CBT and

> Mindfulness. It seems clear that whilst some

> people find the airplane noise virtually

> intolerable others (in the same area) do not. Ways

> of changing your relationship with that noise may

> be helpful. Where everyone finds a stimulus

> impossible to live with, then the stimulus should

> be addressed, but where only some do the most

> 'economic' solution might be one which addressed

> the sufferer, not the immediate cause. Just as

> phobias (such as arachnophobia) can be addressed

> through CBT, so your relationship to aircraft

> noise may also be addressable (and no, I am not

> saying that you are 'mad' or deranged, simply that

> your relationship to airplane noise, the way in

> which it captures your attention so that it become

> unreasonably intrusive may be something which

> psychological support might be able to address).

Advocating CBT to a significant minority of the population of London? Regardless of the merits of CBT, is this not even slightly Orwellian?

But I will raise it with my Doctor and report back!

[Penguin68]

Advocating CBT to a significant minority of the population

Not much liking the aircraft noise and it's making your life a misery are, I would suggest, different in scale - and there are techniques, such as Mindfulness, which can offer some succour without having to go down a CBT route necessarily. Whilst there are many who would sign a petition to 'make the noise go away' - I suspect there are far fewer for whom the noise is actually seriously damaging their quality of life (around here, anyway, for those much closer to the airports it is a different thing entirely). I am lucky in that I am rarely bothered by the aircraft noise, or even aware of it unless reading these threads (and my hearing is good) - the low hovering police helicopters we get on occasion are another matter, but hardly frequent enough to want to make an issue of it.

[fabfor]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/27/cabinet-critics-will-not-quit-over-heathrow-third-runway/

[Lowlander]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Advocating CBT to a significant minority of the

> population

>

> Not much liking the aircraft noise and it's making

> your life a misery are, I would suggest, different

> in scale - and there are techniques, such as

> Mindfulness, which can offer some succour without

> having to go down a CBT route necessarily. Whilst

> there are many who would sign a petition to 'make

> the noise go away' - I suspect there are far fewer

> for whom the noise is actually seriously damaging

> their quality of life (around here, anyway, for

> those much closer to the airports it is a

> different thing entirely). I am lucky in that I am

> rarely bothered by the aircraft noise, or even

> aware of it unless reading these threads (and my

> hearing is good) - the low hovering police

> helicopters we get on occasion are another matter,

> but hardly frequent enough to want to make an

> issue of it.

Hmm, it's a little more serious than that. There are studies showing the actual health risks, like this one from the British Medical Journal showing that "...High levels of aircraft noise were associated with increased risks of stroke, coronary heart disease, and cardiovascular disease..."

http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f5432