Hillsborough Disaster - What exactly is this Justice for the '96?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> I think AfN quite likes the idea of rampaging mobs

> armed with steel bars. In her mind the more

> indiscriminately out-of-control, the better.

Steel Bars!! and brazen with it....:-S(6)

[Keef]

And my question is, what would make them rest easy, what exactly would "justce" be?

"The word 'justice' is bandied around but, to me, that means nothing. There's no justice for a life. What is it? Twenty years, 30 years in jail for a life that's gone? It's not revenge I want; it's accountability. I want the truth about Hillsborough, the real truth, the whole truth."

"That's what we've always wanted. Somebody to hold their hands up and say: 'Yes, we made terrible mistakes, we'll make sure they don't happen again and other people won't go through the same horrors.' "

Well that's my initial question answered. Sorted!

Whether or not that would truly satisfy anyone... well maybe one day we'll know.

[mockney piers]

"we'll make sure they don't happen again and other people won't go through the same horrors."

Well that's pretty much happened following the implementations recommended by the Taylor Report, so basically they want someone to say "sorry, my bad".

Sounds fair enough to me, a little sorry goes a long way.

[matthew123]

Go and mow someone down in your car and then say Sorry, then go for a quick pint as all the problems of the world are resolved and people can get on with their lives... Might be a case of nothing you could have done, maybe there is a case for you to answer in a criminal court.. I don't know but unless the true facts are established questions will remain..

It's a simple analogy and it's exactly the same for one mother in this sad story of Hillsborough:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/hillsborough-disaster/2009/04/14/hillsborough-mother-anne-williams-has-spent-18-years-campaigning-for-new-inquest-into-death-of-teenage-son-115875-21277880/

[Keef]

Anna already posted that story, and yes it's sad.

unless the true facts are established questions will remain..

I agree with this. My concern is that the truth won'r be what peopl want to hear, or won't be enough.

[mockney piers]

"Go and mow someone down in your car and then say Sorry...etc...blah"

Nice one, you really are a tit sometimes Matthew.

[mockney piers]

"Go and mow someone down in your car and then say Sorry...etc...blah"

Nice one, you really are a tit sometimes Matthew.

[matthew123]

Bloody hell mockney, it's an analogy.. it's to help all comers grasp why it's not as simple as saying, "sorry,"

[matthew123]

Bloody hell mockney, it's an analogy.. it's to help all comers grasp why it's not as simple as saying, "sorry,"

[peter19791979]

we all no the police were to blame but they wont put there hand up and say so, and for some of you saying time has gone and stuff what is the time limit on wanting justice,

[peter19791979]

we all no the police were to blame but they wont put there hand up and say so, and for some of you saying time has gone and stuff what is the time limit on wanting justice,

[mockney piers]

I think our average forum reader can probably grasp that tricky concept for themselves thank you Matthew.

Of course the reality is that institutions, particularly powerful ones have a certain inertia and resistance to admitting culpability. I'm positing that 20 years down the line a genuine admission of responsibility and a heartfelt apology is actually achievable and may actually do more than you might think to allow many to move on with their lives.

And the problem with this "I don't know but unless the true facts are established questions will remain" is that the idea of "true facts" is a pretty subjective one, just trawl about for '9/11 truthers' to see that.

I think that's where Keef's question was trying to get to, where is the line drawn so that people can move on with their lives?

[mockney piers]

I think our average forum reader can probably grasp that tricky concept for themselves thank you Matthew.

Of course the reality is that institutions, particularly powerful ones have a certain inertia and resistance to admitting culpability. I'm positing that 20 years down the line a genuine admission of responsibility and a heartfelt apology is actually achievable and may actually do more than you might think to allow many to move on with their lives.

And the problem with this "I don't know but unless the true facts are established questions will remain" is that the idea of "true facts" is a pretty subjective one, just trawl about for '9/11 truthers' to see that.

I think that's where Keef's question was trying to get to, where is the line drawn so that people can move on with their lives?

[AllforNun]

Oh silly people :

They are not steel bars they are flag pole sections for the giant banners etc, they are made of hard plastic and shatter generally when they hit the head, although it takes several strikes across the legs before one would break, sorry i digress, anyway thats what they are.

[matthew123]

>> I think our average forum reader can probably grasp that tricky concept for themselves thank you Matthew.

I was hoping for that.. however, apologies are welcomed. I think releasing the secret files on the Hillsborough disaster (i.e. what happened after the 3.15 cut off), now requested by Jacqui Smith from the South Yorkshire Police force will be extremely helpful for people to move on.. and maybe this will then lead one day to a line being drawn.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8006744.stm

[Atticus]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> Money?

Huguenot, what exactly did you mean by this?

[Otta]

Really?

You do like to look for a row sometimes don't you.

EDIT for predictive text reasons.

[Huguenot]

Did you really just drag up a conversation from over 3 years ago to pick a fight?

[Alan Medic]

Atticus Wrote:

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> Huguenot Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Money?

>

>

> Huguenot, what exactly did you mean by this?

I think this style of questioning has been copied from Ren, the Spanish girlfriend of the gun owning Carter.

[Atticus]

Perfectly reasonable to revisit this given that it is the exact same issue discussed on football thread. So, what did you mean?

[Sharon_H]

I think that he may have meant that they ( The Families) are after compensation, which under the cicumstances they are entitled to. They have had to pay their way during this fight apart from help that has been given to them.

[Alan Medic]

I must say it never occured to me that the families were after financial compensation. I hope that's not the case.

[Sharon_H]

No, it's not the case. I was just replying to the question that Atticus had asked.

[Huguenot]

Sure Atticus, except that it's 3 years and 4 pages later, so I really can't remember what my exact train of thought was. You can't remember the specific details of conversations 3 years ago, so I'm sure you don't expect me to. More likely you're picking a fight.

The phrase 'what exactly do you mean by...' is a traditional British idiom used to prelude outrage and followed by fury. You know that mate.

The question was what exactly justice is, what does it look like? I put forward one suggestion out of many.

Money doesn't have to be compensation, it could also be punishment fines. It is an accepted public demonstration of culpability.

Justice means many things to many people: an apology, vengeance, retribution, humiliation, an eye for an eye... For some people it's money.

[DJKillaQueen]

In the case of Hillsborough it's a demand for the truth. The families knew at the time there was a cover up, and those there on that day certainly did. I was growing up in Liverpool at the time....and I knew people who were there and sadly some of those who lost loved ones on that day.

For me, the biggest disgrace is that Police Officers deliberately shunted the blame elsewhere and that the media and government helped them to do it. Now the truth is out at last.