Dulux versus Gaia

[RosieH]

So this is something I have been pondering for a while, but wouldn't know how to prove one way or the other.

Do you think it's possible to manufacture a colour that doesn't exist in nature?

I used to think yes, but now I suspect no and don't know how to come to a satisfactory (though inevitably not definitive) conclusion.

[david_carnell]

Hmmm well I once read about some scientists in Teddington had created the world's blackest black. It is essentially the absence of light and useful for certain scientific processes. As far as I'm aware it does not occur naturally due to the existence of light throughout the natural world.

I'm on my iPhone at the mo so can't link or hunt for the source of this but maybe someone else could.

[Marmora Man]

Not a scientist but ...... here goes.

1. All colour is a function of light.

2. Light can be refracted to create a spectrum of colours

3. That spectrum of colours provides every combination of colour that can ever be created - tho' some may not be present in any other form than the spectrum of light.

4. So YES nature got there first.

Doesn't the New Scientist have a question and answer column that could answer this?

[Jeremy]

No light can escape a black hole... so surely that is an example of "pure blackness" in nature.

[bigbadwolf]

I have to say Rosie what an interesting thread this is. Forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't there some kind of argument over whether Turquoise was either more blue or green so they just awarded it it's own name.

[david_carnell]

That's not on earth though. You might have trouble trying to view a black hole too.

[Jeremy]

Who said anything about earth or the human eye?

[Bellenden Belle]

I found a link about Teddington's blackest black

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2732487.stm

[RosieH]

Well I thought this about light and the spectrum of colours, but then you get into metallics and fluorescents, and they don't exist in the spectrum, I don't think, do they? Maybe they do. Or maybe they're not officially colours.

MM, you're quite right about New Scientist - I should have thought of it before (although to be fair, while I have been contemplating this for a while, it's never been with any real ferocity). I shall send them a missive toot sweet.

[RosieH]

That blacker than black paint looks brilliant - I'm gonna get some for my bedroom.

[Bellenden Belle]

RosieH Wrote:

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> That blacker than black paint looks brilliant -

> I'm gonna get some for my bedroom.

Oh no it would be terribly depressing.... like living in Teddington.

[Jeremy]

I lived in Teddington for a while. It's quite nice... not at all depressing!

[Moos]

RosieH Wrote:

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> That blacker than black paint looks brilliant -

> I'm gonna get some for my bedroom.

As long as your Noddy wall-paper doesn't keep showing through.

[HonaloochieB]

Bellenden Belle Wrote:

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> I found a link about Teddington's blackest black

>

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2732487.stm

This isn't black it's very very very very very very very very very very very dark blue.

It wouldn't do for priest's socks.

[HonaloochieB]

Does taupe occur in nature?

[Moos]

Clean warthogs, Hona.

[HAL9000]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> No light can escape a black hole... so surely that

> is an example of "pure blackness" in nature.

And G-d said, 'Let there be Bekenstein-Hawking radiation - that'll show them'.

[????]

I think *Bob* and CharlieCharlie are your actual Forum experts on colour

[HonaloochieB]

Moos Wrote:

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> Clean warthogs...

...bring joy to the verger's heart.

Now where are the blueprints?

[HAL9000]

RosieH Wrote:

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> Do you think it's possible to manufacture a colour

> that doesn't exist in nature?

Can natural processes produce all possible colours?

Colour corresponds to electromagnetic wavelength. The electromagnetic spectrum is (believed to be) continuous therefore resolves to an infinite range of pure colours.

Electromagnetic radiation is (usually) produced in steps corresponding to the energy transition levels of certain types of sub-atomic particles (leptons). It could be argued that only a finite number of steps are possible. In which case, nature could not produce all possible pure colours.

However, in an expanding universe, the Doppler effect can bridge the gaps between any finite steps. Synchrotron radiation produces a similar effect. Therefore, our universe (according to our best understanding) is capable of generating a continuous electromagnetic spectrum of infinite resolution or, in plain English, an infinite range of pure colours.

Whether all the possible pure colours exist, or have existed, or will come to exist, can only be determined probabilistically, I would suggest.

> I used to think yes, but now I suspect no and

> don't know how to come to a satisfactory (though

> inevitably not definitive) conclusion.

As for mixtures of pure colours ? the probabilities are mind numbing. The number of pure colour mixtures exceeds the number of atoms in the observable universe by a very wide margin. I?ll leave you to decide whether you were/are right or wrong :)

[RosieH]

Oh my god HAL9000, you've totally f*cked with my head.

This is brilliant, hurrah.

[charliecharlie]

[???? quote=I think *Bob* and CharlieCharlie are your actual Forum experts on colour

]

Well Rosie, it all depends on what you mean by 'exist in nature'... if you mean 'as seen by the human eye', then yes, manufacturers can match it, they now have highly complex scanners and software systems that can detect and copy micro variations in colour difference.

If you mean 'as found in the natural world' (and again the definition of 'natural' is complex) ie plants, minerals, fauna, the elements etc. then it becomes more tricky... synthetic or chemical dyes and pigments can create 'unnatural' colours, ie day-go, fluorescent and what we call 'flip' in the trade, ie colours that appear to be totally different depending on the angle you view them from. The colour industry has invented all sort of 'special effect colours' which can not be found in the natural world, but can, however, be recognised by the human eye. For example, you could have a fluorescent, flip, metallic gloss...

Then there is the thermochromic group which change colour depending on temperature, so are not constant. And to top it all, the metameric impact on colour (ie the fact that two colour samples on different sub-straights, may appear to be identical in one light source, but appear not to match at all in another type of light), makes defining and matching a colour problematic.

[HAL9000]

RosieH Wrote:

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> Oh my god HAL9000, you've totally f*cked with my head.

I know what you mean. Someone did that to me, too.

[woofmarkthedog]

Well it might be, but in a range of washable finishes ?.......now that's the real "challenge"

W**F

[snoozequeen1]

RosieH Wrote:

>

> Do you think it's possible to manufacture a colour

> that doesn't exist in nature?

>

I haven't a clue but this Synthetic chemical turns out to mimic molecule in body, causing unwanted death (the latter bit being my laywoman's interpretation) seems to tell us that we should adopt a little more caution before having fun with man-made chemicals and gaily adding them to everyday substances. Whether as colour or scent.

Should you choose to click and read the article - Chemical Xenobiotics and Mitochondrial Autoantigens in Primary Biliary Cirrhosis: Identification of Antibodies against a Common Environmental, Cosmetic, and Food Additive, 2-Octynoic Acid 1 - you will see that some fairly sensible researchers believe this 2-Octynoic Acid, invented to give a lovely lemony=limey scent and added with merry disregard for human life to all kinds of stuff that we slap onto or into our bodies, turns out to mimic a molecule that already existed in nature - in the cells on the lining of our bile ducts (bile - lemony/limey colour). Unfortunately this has a tendency to confuse the immune system which sadly in the course of getting rid of the synthetic chemical, destroys the bile ducts as well, causing a truly life ruining illness followed by death - faster or slower. I couldn't give you a definite vote for the slow death over the fast one. Either way, it cannot be described as a bundle of fun.

Don't know about Dulux v Gaia specifically, but in chemical manufacturers v human race, I have known a number of losers.