pedestrian crossing east dul grove/lordship lane

[rgutsell]

I will bet this has come up before but here goes.....

Traffic coming down East Dulwich Grove to Lordship Lane has got worse especially since the bus was re routed that way. Traffic noise, and late night noise nuisance from drunken people has risen quite significantly along East Dulwich Grove.

Recently I had a chat with an older woman who, along with me, found it quite worring trying to cross there, (at the junction of East Dulwich Grove and Lordship Lane) and yet punishing to go right down to the zebra crossing. (Which I believe is badly placed right on top of the roundabout).

My suggestion is; that junction (East Dulwich Grove/Lordship Lane) needs to be "pedestrianised" with a raised surface, and "pelican" traffic lights to slow down and control, and regularly stop, the traffic.

Does anyone agree?.

Rgutsell

[matthew123]

That box junction you mention is difficult to cross and it's wonder there have been no accidents.

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[EDfor]

well yes - interesting proposals -

certainly Lordship Lane etc should have been reviewed along with the plans for new speed tables etc to reduce traffic speeds through Dulwich Village - all the road link up and feed through to one another so it has been a major mistake by the local Dulwich Community Council - what little consultation there was restricted to the big houses in the village as far as anyone knows, so there is a big case for a more comprehensive and review and consultation......

[Cora]

I phoned the traffic people about this a couple of years ago and they said they were still deciding what the best option would be for a crossing there. If you do speak to them an update would be great!

[Marmora Man]

rgutsell - you're right it has come up before Zebra Crossing. It currently runs to 4 pages.

[hislordship]

I've thought about this a few times, from both driver and pedestrian perspectives. Lights or yellow crossing would only snarl up the area even more.

I reckon a bridge with 3/4 ramps would be best - maybe with a little seating area on the top. Too expensive I expect though - I bet we'll just get yet more lights one day.

[reetpetite]

This is a difficult one as any lights on this junction will hold up traffic ,including buses, turning into East Dulwich Grove and will cause more congestion back to the Goose Green roundabout.

[rgutsell]

Hi all

I take the point about it slowing traffic (i.e putting traffic lights in, and pelican crossing in, or traffic calming raised road)

But that IS the point. Lights would regulate the traffic turning at that junction, and give through traffic a lane of their own.

I would want to slow the traffic, and stop it whilst residents of ED cross to shops etc.

I am not a car supporter really (although I drive a car and have licences for coaches, buses and lorries!!) If it means traffic is slower or more regulated, so be it; it is a village still, and no one really should expect to be able to drive through without that in mind.

Everyday I see many people, often parents with prams and children, trying to navigate the road to the shops, banks etc. Its dangerous. The mix of people and traffic is not managed well at all.

[rgutsell]

Hi

Good point and photo.

And note the people trying to cross!!

RobertG

[Pugwash]

This junction was brought up at the Dulwich Community Council last week. There are concerns about putting up traffic lights, but the Community Council and Traffic people are still considering other options. Suggest you email either the East Dulwich Ward Councillors - Jonathan Mitchell, James Barber or Richard Thomas on their e mails - @southwark.gov.uk

or contact any of the other Dulwich Councillors.

At the Living Streets walkabout over a year ago, several local residents asked for a crossing outside Somerfields, when this was proposed by councillors and officers, there was an out cry from some shop keepers etc. Whatever is suggested for the East Dulwich Grove /LL area - will not meet with approval from everyone!

[SimonM]

I have never understood why this junction was made a box junction - it seems quite pointless. And I have long thought an ordinary pedestrian crossing across that end of East Dulwich Grove would be the least disruptive and safest solution

[reetpetite]

SimonM Wrote:

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> I have never understood why this junction was made

> a box junction - it seems quite pointless. And I

> have long thought an ordinary pedestrian crossing

> across that end of East Dulwich Grove would be the

> least disruptive and safest solution

I think this option is better,I'm certainly not against a safe crossing as I am one of those pedestrians too,just against traffic congestion which in turn causes more pollution and makes the area unpleasant for everyone.

[skidmarks]

Yellow box junctions are unenforceable at junctions and roundabouts without traffic lights - it shouldn?t be there. You won?t get fined but what you will get is lots of abuse from your peers, which is probably a better deterrent than a fine.

I may see if I can request the collision stats for the last 36months and see what has been happening. If there is not a collision problem you won?t get money out of a safety budget, they may have to go down the regeneration and enhancement budget routes.

I?d imagine what you?ll end up with there is a standard signalised t-junction with all an all red phase for pedestrian.

[Jeremy]

I'm not sure how it would work. A crossing right on the junction would be dangerous because drivers turning left into ED Grove from Lordship Lane wouldn't see it until they'd already made the turn.

I am not sure how traffic lights would work either - Lordship Lane is not wide enough to have multiple lanes, so ALL the traffic would have to be stopped to guarantee safety along that section. Unfortunately that would be unworkable.

I would suggest setting the crossing back 15 metres along ED Grove, but perhaps people wouldn't bother walking that far?

[skidmarks]

Stand alone signalised pedestrian crossings should be at least 20 metres away from junctions, which in this case will put them quite a distance from the desire line for peds. Zebra crossings you can put closer if the visibility is good. However, with any of these proposals you will lose parking space which is always contentious.

[skidmarks]

Just looking at the 5 year collision data; 10 accidents, 3 of which involved pedestrians so 30% when on average in LB of Southwark you expect 18.8% collisions to involve peds at a giveway uncontrolled junction. Just looking at the details a couple of them would not have been prevented with any what has been suggested above (alcohol) so the proposals would not give a good first year rate of return to justify the expenditure.

It seems to me there is more of a perceived risk at the junction than actual risk.

[Chick]

A zebra crossing would be fine and not hold up the traffic.

[Jeremy]

Yes but as I said, it would need to be set back quite a way from the junction, otherwise it would be dangerous.

[SimonM]

>>It seems to me there is more of a perceived risk at the junction than actual risk.<<

From the statistics you quote, I think you may be right. I have crossed it many times and I think perhaps because it is so obviously perilous people take extra care looking both ways along LL before crossing. If you're walking towards Goose Green it is the cars turning left from LL into EDG that are the ones you really have to keep your eye out for, especially the bastards who don't indicate. In theory of course any pedestrian crossing the road there should take precedence over any vehicles turning into EDG, but it would be small comfort having the Highway Code on your side if you're suffering multiple injuries or worse...:)

[rgutsell]

HI all

Thanks for all of the suggestions and observations. Lets keep them coming. I will use this when I contact LBS.etc.

To me "Traffic calming" is part of the aim. If not signals for example, then say two or three spaced Zebra crossings on raised surfaces. Is anyone familiar with the junction at Balham High street adjacent to the station? There, they have used the diagonal crossing facility between lights, and it seesm to work.

Rgutsell

[matthew123]

Pugwash Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> At the Living Streets walkabout over a year ago,

> several local residents asked for a crossing

> outside Somerfields, when this was proposed by

> councillors and officers, there was an out cry

> from some shop keepers etc. Whatever is suggested

> for the East Dulwich Grove /LL area - will not

> meet with approval from everyone!

Are you telling me that local shopkeepers were more concerned by not losing business (by using new crossing to Somerfield) than people getting run down on the road?

[skidmarks]

It will be down to the loss of parking. You should go to any public meeting; it?s the same old-same old anywhere you go. You?d end up thinking the world is going to end as someone can?t park outside a shop.

Well, I guess the world does revolve around the car and anybody out of a car is a second class citizen.

[jim_the_chin]

Barriers at the crossing point directing people up ED Grove to a zebra crossing - no loss of parking on LL, no-one crossing on the junction (except anti-social citizens who go around the barriers)

there's one like this at the junction of Oakley Street and Kings Road in Cheslsea

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?sourceid=navclient&q=Chelsea,+Kensington,+Greater+London+SW3,+United+Kingdom&ie=UTF8&hl=en&cd=7&geocode=Fe-iEQMdFW39_w&split=0&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=6.881357,14.941406&layer=c&cbll=51.486989,-0.169994&panoid=7FZkrxsvqtWWn5Uo6CCg1w&cbp=12,196.5,,0,21.42&ll=51.487042,-0.169859&spn=0.003173,0.006866&z=17&iwloc=A

[skidmarks]

There is a sustained effort going on at the moment to remove pedestrian guard railing in London. I was quite surprised that Friend?s of the Earth are the biggest campaigner for its removal.

I hate the stuff myself. Typical car driver reaction there - funnel all pedestrians away from me and my important car.

[Jeremy]

"Funnel all pedestrians away from me and my important car"??

What a load of rubbish! While we're at it, let's scrap all pedestrian crossings. Let people cross wherever they want.