Labour Leadership

[JohnL]

Corbyn doesn't have to target the 2020 GE - he needs to drag the center ground of

UK politics to the left IMHO.

And that will be enough to start.

[Otta]

Thanks DC, a lot of what you say about Corbyn does resonate with me, especially the bit about not being inspired by the others, and voting FOR something. My reason for considering Cooper was simply that I thought she would do well in PM Questions and she wouldn't apologise for everything, but other than that I'm not actually convinced by her.

And yet something scares me about Corbyn. Probably just dear of the unknown (even though I'm totally disillusioned with the way things are) and the scare tactics of his opponents.

I'll defo read up on Creasy and Eagle. Hadn't thought much about the deputy until today.

Appreciate your thoughts.

[JohnL]

Just read some of Corbyns thoughts on solving the middle east issues

Sounds like me at 12 years old - believing everybody is rational and peaceful at heart.

Doesn't mean it's wrong - but it's innocent.

[Otta]

Okay so just did it. Corbyn, Cooper, Burnham, Kendall.

Creasy then Eagles for deputy. Spent time reading about them both this arvo, and wasn't much in it. Went with Creasy because she's young and passionate (something missing from the leadership race).

Khan for London Mayor.

So, I was far from sure about voting Corbyn, some of his ideas are batshit crazy, but it's not like he can push them through on his own. Basically none of the other 4 inspired me in any way. They should have ignored Corbyn and fought passionate campaigns, but instead they've increasingly made it all about "ABC", which has actuallypushed the likes of me further towards Corbyn.

To those of you that say Corbyn is unelectable, I say you might be right (you might not be though). But let's assume you are right for a moment... Basically I don't believe that any of the others have what it takes to win in 2020. I am totally fed up with the establishment, which seems further and further disconnected to the majority of poeple. So I have voted for a cat which will be thrown amongst the pigeons and hopefully just highlight some alternitives.

Then Stella Creasy can be first female Labour PM in 2025.

Sorted.

[Otta]

I wish MarmoraMan (among others) was still here.

[????]

I just hope the madness that has gripped the Labour Party and my labour chums doesn't ever EVEr get the rest of the country ever or we'll end up like Greece. Dull old centrist politics is driven by dull old economics because it's right - people who have actually been in power, see the receipts coming in and the bills going out have realised this since about 1977 that we need some fiscal discipline, including the dull old middle grounders of the labour leadership contest. Corybn comes jumping in like the pied piper of Hamlin with his fantasy, money tree economics and his inflexible dogma born in the student radicalism of the 60s and 79s I know you guys think it's principles - I reckon I could tell you Corybn's line an any matter because it would be paint by numbers what's the left wing line on this?) and any middle class, metropolitan under 40 is like "he's the messiah" . I am honestly scratching my head at your collective stupidity....

[miga]

I don't think you need to worry ????, if Corbyn ever gets into power, he'll have to soften a lot. If you look at Syriza and what they've done since being in power, in a country that was already a lot more to the left, they've compromised a lot on their initial hard line. It's incredibly hard to change a system, especially one as stable as this country.

[miga]

Also, it wasn't Syriza that ran the corrupt state into the ground, it was a mixture of left/right governments, they all had their fingers in the till. And let's also not forget the Tories keep on shifting the deficit elimination into the future. So much for austerity.

[Otta]

He won't be PM. He'll get things talked about, that's a good thing. I am under 40 and he's no messiah to me.

I just couldn't sit through 5 years of one of the others, only to see them lose again.

[????]

Oh I don't think the Tories are doing a good job on it because it is a nigh on impossible job given the massive inflexible burden of our debt accelerated by demographics. Western governments are going to go bust in the next 15-20 years. Corybn and his ilk are living in a fantasy world if they think there can ever be a significant increase in public spending again ever.

[DaveR]

"I believe he can drag the political debate to the left and give airtime to many arguments that for too long have been subject to a centre-right consensus"

"I am totally fed up with the establishment, which seems further and further disconnected to the majority of poeple. So I have voted for a cat which will be thrown amongst the pigeons and hopefully just highlight some alternitives."

This just seems to me to be wishful thinking. If there is a centre right consensus (and the last election result suggests there is) Corbyn is going to be marginalised, and the Labour Party with him. If the majority are disconnected from 'the establishment (which tbh is a prett dated idea) then how come there is a centre right consensus?

Apart from any of his more crazy ideas, Corbyn is going to get crucified for having ridden into the leadership on the back of public sector dominated strike happy trade unions, just like Ed M did. And half his MPs are going to be briefing against him from day one, and the press will lap it up. That's the reality - it's going to be bloody.

[????]

.. I get that Otta but I don't think he'll be an effective opposition. you (Labour Party members) are talking to yourselves again, he does it all the time, Ed did it, Gordown Brown did it, Burnham did it it as was pulled up by kendall (boo hiss stage left), social media does it ; must be a secret Clause 5 or something - I must only talk to fellow Comrades.....

[ratty]

The point is, he will start people thinking on a different level, instead of being scared of migrants and Muslims the public might start wondering why we are spending billions of pounds on a weapon that, if ever used, would signal our immediate and total destruction. Or why we are allowing such tax evasion by huge companies whilst hitting the vulnerable and sick with more hardships. It doesn't have to be radical, just fairer. If Corbyn forces the Tories to change some of their policies to get re-elected, or forces a debate on the downright lies we are fed by the media then has not the country benefitted?

Perhaps because of my role in society I am more sensitive to the cruelties this government are inflicting on the poor and the young. But that's my viewpoint and I have voted accordingly and will continue to do so!

[david_carnell]

And for all Quids likes to talk about the ludicrous comparisons with Venezuala, this government has managed to double the national debt. Yet apparently this chancellor is a financial genius and austerity is amazing.

[JohnL]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And for all Quids likes to talk about the

> ludicrous comparisons with Venezuala, this

> government has managed to double the national

> debt. Yet apparently this chancellor is a

> financial genius and austerity is amazing.

Although some people call him other things.

[miga]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And for all Quids likes to talk about the

> ludicrous comparisons with Venezuala, this

> government has managed to double the national

> debt.

Do you think this would have been different under any of the other possible governments?

[JohnL]

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> david_carnell Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > And for all Quids likes to talk about the

> > ludicrous comparisons with Venezuala, this

> > government has managed to double the national

> > debt.

>

> Do you think this would have been different under

> any of the other possible governments?

Depends if you believe in 'The Austerity Delusion'

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion

[Sue]

ratty Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The point is, he will start people thinking on a

> different level, instead of being scared of

> migrants and Muslims the public might start

> wondering why we are spending billions of pounds

> on a weapon that, if ever used, would signal our

> immediate and total destruction. Or why we are

> allowing such tax evasion by huge companies whilst

> hitting the vulnerable and sick with more

> hardships. It doesn't have to be radical, just

> fairer. If Corbyn forces the Tories to change some

> of their policies to get re-elected, or forces a

> debate on the downright lies we are fed by the

> media then has not the country benefitted?

>

Completely agree.

[????]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> miga Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > david_carnell Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > And for all Quids likes to talk about the

> > > ludicrous comparisons with Venezuala, this

> > > government has managed to double the national

> > > debt.

> >

> > Do you think this would have been different

> under

> > any of the other possible governments?

>

> Depends if you believe in 'The Austerity

> Delusion'

>

> http://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive

> /2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion

And what exactly 'Nobel prize winning' economist Paul Krugman's prediction for UK unemployment under the Coalition back in 2010? It's a dismal science with economists falling on all sides of the debate - generally academic economimists are more anti-Tory and Corporate ones more pro, which just reinforces mine and no doubt your particular prejudices.

[????]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And for all Quids likes to talk about the

> ludicrous comparisons with Venezuala, this

> government has managed to double the national

> debt. Yet apparently this chancellor is a

> financial genius and austerity is amazing.

Once more inventing words and POV that I haven't said anywhere. It's so foooking tedious just a framing you're keen on doing cos They don't hold the same views as you. And has happened on here for years just your tedious propaganda about different points of view to your 'religion' tedious old socialist smearing.

[Blah Blah]

That has a lot to so with the style of economics advocated and being taught in Universities.

I saw in the news yesterday that those ringfenced pensioner payments might have to be unringfenced too. Seems Ian Duncan Smith is turning his attentions there, unable perhaps to find 12bn more pounds of savings from the disabled and under 25s. Looks likely that winter fuel allowance may be reduced with things like free travel and TV licence becoming means tested to start with.

At the meoment we are all focussed on the Labour leadership and a Corbyn era when the more interesting battles are surely going to be Europe (a regular mark of Tory implosion), efforts by IDS to remove anything from all those pensioners that put them into power and bill by bill battles over extended right to buy, human rights legislation etc etc.

The sooner Labour get this damned leadership contest out of the way, and we can get down to the politics of reality, the better.

[miga]

Yes, you'll know they're serious about "balancing the books" when they do something about pensions, which are about half of the welfare budget, or 5-6% GDP. That's the demographic timebomb ???? was talking about, although UK is probably better off than other European countries, what with lots of immigration and high birth rates.

[Blah Blah]

I think all of Europe has the same demographic issues. Some are better prepared than others but it's going to be a challenge for everyone. Even Malthus argued that population growth had to be kept in check whereas free market economists think the opposite. Free marketeers want competition and cheap labour, whereas opponents argue that increasing the numbers of working age people to pay for pensions, is a self fullfilling ponzi pyramid, because with each generation you need more and more people to prop up the newly retired generation. And that only works if most of those of working age are working. THAT is a growing problem as well. Not enough employment there either.

[????]

They have done a bit in pushing the pension age up but that's politically kind of easy as it won't kick in for a while Health is the other problem with demographics a 70 year old costs the NHS 5 x the cost of a 30 year old. Other countries are going to go bust we may be ok but even a govt committed to reducing public spending and with a mandate to cut is finding it tough. Ultimately something's going to have to give for pensions and health but no-ones got the political balls for either. Old economics and old spending is dead innit.

[Blah Blah]

Raising the pension age won't make any difference to whether people stay well enough to work, so they'll be in receipt of income support or ESA before they even get to 70 most likely.

Just on healthcare though, as it's the field I work in and know something about. A lot of money could be saved in the longer term with better preventative care. Take something as simple as diabetes for example. The links with obesity and innactivity are undeniable. Other things such as heart disease and cholesterol issues are also preventable. Regulation of the food industry could save the NHS billions over the longer term.

I'd favour taxes on foods that are unquestionably contributary to those things, whilst subsidising prices on healthier foods. Deep fried chicken and chips should be an occasional thing, not a staple diet. When I see overweight/obese children, I get rather angry, because in most cases, the only thing to blame is poor diet and lack of activity. I can't stress enough how bad it is for children to develop fat cells. They stay with that person for life and make weight control difficult to maintain.

The same can also be said for dental care. Increasing numbers of children and having teeth removed because of totally unnecessary decay. Again it's another huge cost that could be significantly reduced.