Mean people outside The Castle - what to do?

[mightyroar]

when it's dark, you're tired and on your way home and they are clearly drunk?

you'd call that flattery?

[Growlybear]

Yes, if they are just making comments, I would be flattered. I can't see why it would be embarrassing.

[HonaloochieB]

PF, my suggestion for what its worth.

If you can, screw up your courage, stop and face them and say something along the lines of;

"I bet most of you have mothers, sisters, and girlfriends that you wouldn't want being treated the way you've just treated me. I'm offended by it, so please stop"

I'd suggest a quick turn and walk away, don't allow expressions of regret or apology. Perhaps just let the unexpectedness sink in. I believe that most people are decent enough to know if their behaviour is causing annoyance/distress then they'll cease or at least modify it.

Peer pressure also helps. If they are part of the 'building' milieu as I once was, then this could be particularly effective.

The fact I call it the building 'milieu' is a strong indicator as to why I no longer work in it.

Good luck.

[LibraCarr]

Hi,

Just read this thread really quickly. I stand to be corrected but I feel that the owner/manager of the licensed premises duty is to ensure that the customers behave in a proper manner whilst on the premises.

I believe that it is a waste of time contacting the Police, The safer neighbourhood team, or any other party. I would say that if all of the postings were helpful and supportive and not so stupid, print them off and just place them in a envelope through the letterbox of the address.

I am sure that if the owner/manager was interested in keeping trade and not losing business he/she would tackle this problem.

It is really not helpful at all when innane comments are posted on this site when someone is clearly troubled.

Kind regards,

Libra Carr

[Moos]

Claire, Growlybear, it's great that you don't feel intimidated or harrassed by comments and wolf-whistling.

However, perhaps you should accept that not everyone is the same. Clearly if prettyflowers enjoyed the attention then she would not have posted. A little imagination and empathy goes a long way, and telling her that her feelings on the subject are incorrect ("I don't get why you aren't flattered") just isn't helpful.

[Penguin68]

I suspect that the licencee's licence somewhat depends on the way that the premises are run - abusive customers would be the sort of thing which could cause a licence not to be renewed - so it is very much in the licencee's best interests to calm down this sort of behaviour. The licencing regime has just changed - and for the life of me I cannot remember who is now the licencing authority (I am sure someone on this board does know) - they might be a port of call for you.

There is a very fine line between jocular and threatening behaviour - I normally assume it is jocular when the participants know each other, threatening when they don't - and indeed when it is one woman against a multitude, even when they do know each other, it has a tendancy towards threat.

[sophiesofa]

LibraCarr's suggestion is great. I just tried to find an email address for them to see if you could just email a link to this thread but I couldn't find one but if you google the castle dulwich this thread is around the 4th one down so hopefully the owner will want to get things sorted soon.

I had a similar problem where I last lived where there was a building site on my route to my house and when it's everyday it really grates on you and for a year I had to walk the long way round to avoid them.

Hop it gets sorted soon.

[Jamma]

This thread is incredible. Incredibly depressing. How can so many people think this sort of thing is acceptable? A group of beery lads, one woman. Why are they shouting at her? For one reason only - to make them feel big and she feel uncomfortable. And that is completely and utterly unacceptable.

Go to town. Contact the Castle, contact the PCSOs, contacting the licensing board if such a thing still exists. I really hope you don't just ignore them and hope they go away, you shouldn't have to put up with it a second longer.

THe problem is that engaging with them is hard. I've seen women try and then the mob invariably turns to nasty abuse. Ideally I'd say take their photos, post them on here and let's name and shame them (and photo-shop them to make them look very silly indeed).

[Narnia]

Don't you think taking their photo's might be dangerous if these people amount to a mob?

[suzplum]

I agree with Jamma. In the past in similar situations I have tried confronting these sorts of idiots and they have replied with a tonne of abuse, which can sometimes be very itimidating.

In really infuriates me, I know you shouldn't let these kind of people get to you but I just find it really rude, irritating and pathetic. Do these blokes really think that by shouting at women they're actually going to get anywhere?

I would never dream of shouting anything at some person just going about their day to day life!

Personally, I don't take it as a compliment in the slightest...

[sophiesofa]

Do these blokes really think that by shouting at women they're actually going to get anywhere?

The way i see it is it must be as successful as email phishing scams. Very rarely it must work so they go for the quantity rather than quality approach by just shouting.

The other day I was walking along Barry Road and some man said "pretty lady come for a ride with me' and I obviously ignored him but I saw him later do the same to a girl of school age and she stopped and had a brief discussion with him. I would just like to point out that I was distance away and did watch to see that she left and didn't get in his car! My point is that very rarely they must succeed. Also when they're in a gang it's just showing off to their tosser mates.

[KidKruger]

Sophie these men outside the Castle are not hoping to get anywhere (even they would know there's zero chance), it's just idle bored men with a pint or two in 'em trying to impress each other with sexist banter towards innocent female(s).

If they straightened-up/sobered-up they would have to agree they behave like tossers.

In another society we would not be discussing them on the internet but marching round there to beat up the blokes outside the Castle and even torch the premises if there was no promise of improvement from the guvnor.

We clearly do have a level of tolerance towards this behaviour in our society.

[sophiesofa]

Yes I think i did go off topic there because the ones outside the castle do just sound like drunk tossers.

I think another society might go to the other extreme where everyone thinks it is acceptable, the norm even. I think we're somewhere in the middle when it's just tollerated and frowned upon.

[Moos]

This is yet more off topic but when on holiday in Barbados (this was when I was a young thing, you understand) I came to realise that my 'ignore-comments-from-strangers' approach was regarded by the Bajans as rude and snobbish rather than just protective camoflage. A polite smile and walking on went down much better, and didn't result in any hassle.

To be clear these were hello pretty lady-type comments as per sophiesofa's post rather than get-em-out-for-the-lads insult such as revolting drunken Englishmen indulge in.

[Jamma]

Who cares if the Bajans thought you were rude or snobbish? They were being rude and disrespectful to you. I don't want to get lounged so let's get back to the topic - there is no excuse for the behaviour of the yobs outside The Castle. End of. It's only a stupid sexist society that would tolerate it.

[Moos]

Well, I completely agree with you about the Castle people and also do not wish to be the cause for this thread to be lounged so will amicably agree to disagree with you in re: my post on Bajans.

[Growlybear]

Blimey, I do think some of the comments in this thread are just a tad over the top. Only on the East Dulwich Forum would you get people suggesting that the evil perpetrators of such foul sexist deeds should be photographed and have their pictures displayed on a public forum. I'll start to worry the day that I walk past a pub like the Castle and DON'T get any comments or wolf whistles.

[RosieH]

And I'll start to worry the day I seek validation in being objectified by the drunken intellectually subnormal.

[lizzie]

By the way, the publican is a woman and she's a pretty tough cookie and doesn't put up with any nonsense from anyone. I know most of the guys who drink there and they're a pretty harmless bunch. But perhaps the half price beer in happy hour makes them a tad more jovial than they should be - anyway it's getting darker earlier and earlier so only the ardent smokers will be popping outside

[Growlybear]

Having drunk in the Castle with my husband on and off over the last 30 years, I can't say I've come across too many intellectually subnormal customers - they are actually a far more normal bunch than the namby-pamby coffee drinking brigade who have now taken over pubs like the Herne.

[Moos]

I'm sure the majority of the Castle's regulars are perfectly normal and intelligent people - no-one is talking about them, but well done for trying to bring "namby-pamby coffee drinkers" into it - what exactly was the relevance of that?

I think the point Rosie is making is that jeering and leering at strangers is not the work of intelligence.

[monniemae]

& more importantly, that the aggressive intrusions of groups of men into your mental space, whether dressed up as flattery come-ons appreciations or assessments, are no cause for gratitude. and I agree that people who think it's alright to heckle women and girls walking past them ARE intellectually subnormal, whoever they are.

[SteveT]

The Castle has been notorious for yonks Growlybear, everyone round here unless they are deaf and blind, knows that.

So I think you are being provocative when you've known it intimately over 30 years.

I don't think the cat calling and loud mouthed yobbishness is a nice thing to cope with,

especially when you are going home alone at night and they are team handed.

[????]

No-one should feel uncomfortable walking past anywhere and if that means people miss a bit of , erm, 'flattery' once in a while, so be it.

[Growlybear]

I think 'jeering and leering' is going a little over the top, but of course everyone is entitled to their opinion on such behaviour. If people would prefer not 'to seek validation in being objectified by the drunken intellectually subnormal', that's fine, but personally, I would rather think that I'm not too much of a munter to warrant the odd teensy leer from the drunken intellectually subnormal oiks who are forced to stand outside the Castle if they want a smoke :))