"Pakis" v "Dour Presbyterian Scots"

[RosieH]

Someone called me a gobby northerner the other day, so I told him he was a f@ggot n*gger. For some reason he got really upset...

I have no sense of humour about this. There is no parity between the two descriptors. I've seen someone kicked to a bloody pulp for being a "Paki" - of Scots I've only heard it said that they're a bit tight with money and have a delicious accent.

Spurious fucking nonsense.

[Mick Mac]

how dare you say the scots are tight rosie. Im afraid that in my experience the english are the tightest race. The english from the north are the worst.

[LegalEagle-ish]

I didn't want to give this crap any more oxygen but am kind of pissed off that people seem to be missing my point.

A friend of mine who is half arab (her description) and was brought up by her white mum was called paki and bullied mercilessly all of her childhood despite having no relatives hailing from Pakistan. It was her colour that attracted the description paki, so this is not a shortened friendly way of describing someone whose nationality is Pakistani, it is a racist insult and always has been.

I know young Afghan boys living in the UK who are also called paki in school in London, now as a racist insult. This is not an old term that no longer carries racist overtones, it is still a racist insult.

Also some of my neighbours in Elephant & Castle were called paki despite being British, and their families coming from Bangladesh. They had never been to Pakistan nor had any relatives from Pakistan, so again, the use of the word paki, was an insult being used because of the persons couour,, not their nationality.

Being brown can elicit the description paki - this is racist.

Now let's look at the comparison 'Scot'.

A Scot is someone with Scottish nationality. Being white from some other country is unlikely to result in you being called dour or any other kind of Scot. SO THIS IS NOT A RACIST TERM - THIS IS A DESCRIPTION OF SOMEONES NATIONALITY!

So comparing the two terms is like comparing types of cheese with a brand of chalk.

Someone from Pakistan can be white, black, asian etc, but only someone brown would be called a paki.

I rest my case.

[mockney piers]

I appreciate your sentiment, and as always your heart, but it's not really a water tight case is it (you should know better than that).

I don't think you're average ignorant racist is making mental differentiations between racial differences, national differences and cultural differences. It's all about fear/hatred and ignorance of the other, hence why your achetypical thug happy to shout abuse at a woman in a veil or beat up a black kid because they're all criminals, will find no mental disconnect in having black mate 'he's alright he's one of the lads' or a even a pakistani friend 'yeah but he's just like a white person, not like these bloody muslims' etc.

I agree that it's much easier to direct this at people of a different colour, but regions, uk nationalities and european nationalities are just as open to this ignorant ire. Remember the Russian lad stabbed to death when Germany knocked us out of Euro 96, and the BMWs set on fire.

I don't think your 'Dour Scot' is chalk to 'Paki's cheese I think it's just much (much) lower down a sliding scale as RosieH perfectly demonstrated. It's all still born out of laziness and ignorance.

- edited last point as i saw I was actually agreeing with you on the national - racial thing, but still think it's about otherness.

[????]

Legal - people aren't missing your point I can't see any post on here which says they are the same. This thread was started on the basis of what's happened on strictly come dancing (not with any racist intent) and looking at the responses ED has passed its liberal lite test with top marks

[DagmarJ]

Apologies, maybe off topic [still learning about forum behaviour], but thought some of you might appreciate this piece.

Shazia Mirza - A game of two halves

As for the original post question, I don't know much of the detail of either of those situations, but given historical and social context think the first expression racist but not the latter.

[LegalEagle-ish]

You are missing the very logical point i am trying to make.

Racism is making judgement/comment based on race.

Nationalism is making judgement/comment based on nationality.

I have never heard of anyone being called a paki who was not brown skinned and this was exactly why the strictly come dancing guy made his remark - because the person he was addressing had become brown skinned. This is clearly a comment based on race or percieved similarity to a race - not nationality. Ergo this is racism.

I am not saying what is bad or what is good. I am just explaining the difference.

The Scot comment is a comment based on nationality, not race.

If you want to argue that nationalism is as bad as racism, that's totally up to you, but to confuse nationalism with racism is incorrect and driving me nuts. One is about skin colour, the other is about place of birth, childhoood or where you settled in the world.

As an aside, it is contrary to international (and domestic) law to discriminate against a person based on their race, but it is not illegal to discriminate on the basis of nationality, which is why we have passports and border controls etc.

[LegalEagle-ish]

Also race is not something you can change - but Nationality or national identity you can.

[????]

erm, I'm not, I don't disagree with any of what you said or indeed what practically everyone else has on here, you're looking for fights that aren't being fought on here, that's all......not that that's in your nature ;-)

[????]

Your point on the legal aspect is a good one too which does, in my opinion, rightly seperate the issue between race and nationality

[LegalEagle-ish]

Lol, thank you Quids, finally someone understands what I was banging on about!

[Mick Mac]

Legal - I take you point but Anti Irish racism would appear to exist and yet the Irish are you say not a race but a nationality.

Anti Irish Racism

The debate on race and what constitutes race is a complex issue and has moved over time. One could argue that the current understading of racism is synomous with people from particular countries rather than a race in general, anti Irish racism being an example/proof of its existence. Perhaps nationalities are sub sets of race but equally they can suffer racism on the basis of being treated differently according to the country they come from.

Call it what you like but people in general understand this to be racism. As do, more importantly the authorities and the employment tribunals.

[Asset]

I spent time in India as a child and when I came back got called a paki. Interesting as I didn't go to Pakistan, nor am I a Pakistani, I'm white. Silly, ignorant childish behaviour (by children).

[DagmarJ]

Sorry, LegalEagle-ish - yes, you're absolutely right. I think I meant in my books the first shouldn't be used, the second can. Not because one is racist and the other nationalist, but because of the context.

[reggie]

It is possible to be racist when describing nationality..it just takes practice.

If enough people agree that a word caused offense then that word can be used is an offensive way.

Surely calling someone a Paddy is the same as Paki. 'Paddy' is from Ireland while 'paki' has brown skin but the intended nastiness is the same. Separating these terms seems a bit pointless.

[????]

So, the Irish owned bookmaker firm Paddypower is strange form of self-hatred?

As it happens personally I don't tend to call people either Irish people or people from Pakistan by 'slang' generic names reflecting certain nationalities either as individuals or collectively, but 'Paddy' feels different to 'Paki' to me for whatever reasons, and I think it's largely intent as many posters have suggested. However, I'm sure Irish people in the UK have had the word Paddy used unpleasantly against them or even patronisingly, which I assume is just as bad. But I don't know.

On the other hand I'm happy using Scouse/Geordie, Cockney, Mancs, ect and also happy using Taffs and Jocks (Sweatys) and Yanks, Aussies, safas and Kiwis as collective terms - almost always used in terms of sport although not to individuals. I don't mind being called a Pommie or a Brit, although the latter is sometimes used with 'intent', but then historically we Brits have tended to be oppressor rather than the oprressed..I dunno, go and figure but it doesn't feel the same to me, 'Paki' is now and probably always was racist.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ah but that's where I disagree reggie - I remember when Paddy was loaded with all sorts of connotations and threat - but really, how many people now ever use the term as an insult? The Irish have over the last 15 years been accepted into society in a way that wasn't imaginable 20 years ago. It's not just the absence of "No Irish welcome" signs in B & Bs - it's the proliferation of Irish culture everywhere

If someone were to call me Paddy now I wouldn't feel threatened - I would just look at them as some relic from a bygone era. The term "paki" is getting to be the same way - the levels of intimidation seem lower than even 10 years ago - but we're not there yet. The word is still loaded and toxic

[????]

Nice simultaneous post...we didn't rig it honest!

[SeanMacGabhann]

cross post with quids there, but good points

It's not using a slang term that's offensive/racist - just ask "are the people/race/culture I'm being cheeky about subject to daily hassle because of who they are?"

If the answer is yes, then don't use the phrase - if it's no, then flake away

[SeanMacGabhann]

oooh I've done it again!

[reggie]

I do agree, it was just the post about separating a racist comment from a 'nationalist' comment that I was really talking about. It all boils down to the same thing if its nasty and meant to offend.

Its basically all name calling.

If we want to dismiss a person we use any term to belittle them and reduce the fact that they may be free thinking individuals. Calling me a white English middle class male southerner is the truth but can also be used against me ....if you want to!

[Mick Mac]

I'm sure we could think of something better than that reggie (if we didn't like you that is - but we do, so you are ok).

[reggie]

i just love being liked

[red devil]

shouldn't that be softy southerner?..

[Keef]

Get lost manc! ;-)