"Pakis" v "Dour Presbyterian Scots"

[annaj]

My goodness it takes me a long time to post, so much happened while I was typing.

So... ps

What *Bob* said - the word Paki would never just slip out, because I've never used it (outside of discussions like this, before some smart arse says "you just did") So, Du Beke's "I don't use rascist language" sounds a bit hollow to me. As an aside isn't his partner, Lalia, just one of the most beautiful women you have ever seen?

And what Keef said - which was, in fact, what I was saying, but much more concisely.

[*Bob*]

I can't think of many other occasions where people demand the right to behave in exactly the same way they did when they were a child and didn't know any better - but this one seems to come back time and time again.

Perhaps tomorrow I'll start the day with fifteen minute tantrum about which cereal to have, pull the legs off a few spiders, wee my pants, eat a mouthful of soil and then go down the Paki shop.

[????]

I'm quite happy to use 'Sweaty', I don't think it has the same connotations as 'paki' and they are part of the same ethnic group as me.

Nice to see the prejudice that Essex is a hot bed of prejudice continuing if everyone wants to get impossibly sensitive. Acceptable prejudices for the EDF seem to be..

The Middle class ;-)

Mum's (especially middleclass ones)

Chavs

People from Essex

Clowns

[Keef]

Maurice raises a very good point about the definition between the word paki and the word nigger. The latter as much more taboo, and I wonder if it's because a, pople are a bit more scared of offending the black man, than the little man in the corner shop, and b, because black people have to some extent reclaimed the word as their own (see ANY episode of the Wire, or Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction, which was where I first head it used by a black man addressing a white man).

[*Bob*]

???? Wrote:

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> Nice to see the prejudice that Essex is a hot bed

> of prejudice continuing if everyone wants to get

> impossibly sensitive.

Fair enough.. 'Tony' is from Sevenoaks in Kent, another hotbed of prejudice.

[????]

;-)

[SeanMacGabhann]

Suggesting that we aren't yet at a stage where calling someone "paki" is ok, is IMPOSSIBLY sensitive? Really?

Even allowing for the usual dash of cheeky provocation that seems a tad unnecessary

before anyone goes back into semantics, and to state the bleedin obvious, the phrase "paki", in this country at least, carries with it decades of baggage and violence which just ISN'T THERE when generalising about Essex people, the middle class or the Scottish. And anyone who pretends differently is just going around with their fingers in their ears going "la la la la can't hear you".

At least we are spare Tony Burbs contribution which would no doubt reference his Pakistani friends and how they not only don't mind being called "paki" by the local youths as the try and cross the local Medway shopping precinct, they positively embrace it. In fact, so popular has it become that some of his Malaysian friends are looking for some of the action

[SeanMacGabhann]

cross posted with your smiley - dang nab it

[woofmarkthedog]

God we have so moved on in our pedantic prejustice in Sydenham and you lot need to get down wiv' it.

Like I mean we go down the "Indi" shop now & the "Sri" offy

Both run by Indians & Sri Lankans respectively.

When they dis me they call me OMED ( of mixed european decent ) but I'm cool with it I think!

*this could get complicated*

W**F

[Brendan]

You originally make a point about something being both racist and insulting. They are 2 different things.

For something to be racist there needs to be intent on the part of the user. If a term is widely known to be considered racist one can assume that there is intent there if someone uses it.

For something to be insulting is a different story it depends of what the subject feels about what is being said about them. So making sure you don?t insult someone requires a degree of empathy and common decency. Not everyone in this world is able to empathise however.

Which upon reflection is probably why political parties like the tories are allowed to prosper and not vilified like the BNP is.

[????]

Sean - I was talking about Keef's comment on Sweaty's...you do have a habit of misconstruing posts either by not reading the whole context or making pretty strong 'assumptive' accusations. You did this to MM earlier too as he pointed out. You've form on this before. Read my earlier post (for the first time or again) please. We know you fight the good fight but it gets to the point that we can't discuss anything without you jumping in with NAZIS NAZIS.

[SeanMacGabhann]

To me, racism only occurs when there is an imbalance of power, and a likely (probably physical) abuse of that power

So calling someone from Pakistan isn't inherently "racist" - but thinking they are inferior, and legitamising that thought and those who would attack them, by sharing the language is racist

It's why different terms change meaning over the years - to touch on an earlier point, the term "ethnics" has mutated as those who are uncomfortable with Asians realise they will probably get told-off by "the PC brigade" if they use "paki" so they start to say "ethnics" out loud whilst looking like they are swallowing warm, salty water

People don't (for the most part) "want" or "look for" offence - they just have their eyes and ears open, read the stories about racist attacks and know what drives them - then they try and pre-empt that culture

is that so bad?

[mockney piers]

Obviously a word is just a bunch of vowels and consonants, so it boils down to meaning and context.

I guess in the states it's unknown, hence the fuss about the Pac Man cartoon made there when first aired here, as the eponymous hero was called Paccy by his friends and it was soon withdrawn form Saturday morning TV.

In Pakistan it would appear that ifs no different to us calling ourselves Brots, as. Have often seen signs saying "go pakis" held aloft at cricket matches in that part of the subcontinent.

Here it undoubtedly has a pejorative meaning attached to it and im inclined to think it always has since it slipped into general usage as a reaction to mass immigration. Just because casual racism was the norm forty years ago, doesn't mean it was ever right.

Dour scot is a rather lazy generalisation, though like many based in more than a grain of truth with the presbytarian tradition having deeply embedded roots in Scotland.

I think with these labels you have to ask os it useful, and I'd say no it's not so would avoid it. Is it offensive? Perhaps, and if Mick hand on heart says he finds it so then that's good enough for me to avoid it's usage which I think is best avoided anyway because or just masking a lazy generalisation.

[????]

To save you reading all my post

[SeanMacGabhann]

And when have I done that quids? "Nazi Nazi" That's just silly

Nor was I having much of a go - I just thought, context or no, anyone scanning the thread could see the phrase "impossibly sensitive" and misconstrue it. I don't think I have.. I've been agreeing with pretty much everything you've written on here - I just picked up on that phrase

the rest of my post at that time was addressed to others who had posted why the phrase was ok to . I'm slightly exasperated that the question needs asking but I'm not calling anyone a nazi, a racist or anything else

[mockney piers]

Mind you I was at a wedding in Lossiemouth last weekend, and if that weather was typical then I'd be pretty damn dour I can tell you!!

[Brendan]

Of course casual racism is so much a traditional part of English culture that restricting it is being culturally intensive and therefore racist in itself.

[????]

Not what I said at all, the 'suggesting' being your addition and 'suggests' that's what you are thinking and then implying are my thoughts...bit annoyed with being accused of being at best indifferent to the the use of a word thet as of my earlier post I've made pretty clear I think is not usable as it has racist intent. Sorry for being annoyed at being called racist.

[Jeremy]

The word, taken in isolation is fine. But surely everyone knows the malicious connotations the word took on in the 70s/80s - as a result, it has become an extremely offensive word. This "Du Beck" character is surely well aware of this... there's no excuse.

[david_carnell]

Of course casual racism is so much a traditional part of English culture that restricting it is being culturally intensive and therefore racist in itself.

Says the man from....?

;-)

[SeanMacGabhann]

Fair enough - I could have worded the first bit much better - I just wasn't sure where the impossibly sensitive bit came from - and that's after reading your post several times

I certainly wasn't implying that you were racist - and as I said above, I've agreed with pretty much everything else you've written on this thread - so for any offence caused, I apologise

[Brendan]

Stop being so racist David.

[Mick Mac]

???? Wrote:

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> Sean - I was talking about Keef's comment on

> Sweaty's...you do have a habit of misconstruing

> posts either by not reading the whole context or

> making pretty strong 'assumptive' accusations. You

> did this to MM earlier too as he pointed out.

> You've form on this before. Read my earlier post

> (for the first time or again) please. We know you

> fight the good fight but it gets to the point that

> we can't discuss anything without you jumping in

> with NAZIS NAZIS.

Thanks quids. I agree sean made a incorrect inference from my OP. Whether there was intent or not i dont know.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I didn't make an inference - I asked the question what was the point of starting the thread ? I came up with one possible answer, which I didn't think but was intended to prompt an answer

2 things are likely to happen if you start a thread like this

1) Some people will go "good point - I was allowed to call them pakis when I were a lad and now I can't - why not? It never did them any harm"

2) Worthy's like me will be on high-alert for #1

I'm still no wiser what the point of the thread is really

[mockney piers]

Brendan Wrote:

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> Of course casual racism is so much a traditional

> part of English culture that restricting it is

> being culturally intensive and therefore racist in

> itself.

You semi jest but it's true isn't it.

Canoeing down the Wye this summer we oiled up at a tiny campsite ten miles out of Hereford and were met by a jolly farmer who greeted us warmly and on seeing my friend Kofe exclaimed "my, you've suntan on you". Our jaws dropped but Kofe took it in good humour, there was no ill intent on he part of the farmer, just ignorance really.

Mind you Kofe is a good natured chap, he still thinks he was nicknamed Benson in the army because he smoked B&H, bless him.

Edited to say oiled up, oiled up?!?! What's my iPhone doing to me. Obviously that was meant to be pulled up!!!