Seacow/MEATliquor (main section)

[DuncanW]

I'm confused - I thought that Dulwich IS the suburbs??

[Louisa]

That's pretty much how I feel about Man of Kent since revisiting it over the last few months. When I first entered that pub back in 1976 I never would have dreamt that this little back street watering hole would be one the last traditional boozers standing locally by 2016. Not in a million years. But just goes to show, you never know what the future holds. I know we joke about it now, but in years to come we will be lamenting the demise of working class pub culture, something which as a nation we are renound for. Gastropubs are cleancut, minimalist and food friendly which of course is a major draw, but they lack a sense of reality. Do you think a tourist would rather come to the UK and enter a typical gastropub, or go to a quintessential boozer for a pint? It's unique, it's a memory, a place in time. It's on a par with us Brits going to Rome looking for a little Italian pizzeria and being told they've all closed down but there's a Pizza Hut restaurant just up the road.

Louisa.

[Jah Lush]

Louisa -

"last traditional boozers"

"little back street watering hole"

"the demise of working class pub culture"

"Do you think a tourist would rather come to the UK and enter a typical gastropub, or go to a quintessential boozer for a pint? It's unique, it's a memory, a place in time."

"lack a sense of reality"

Cor, blimey guv. Strike me dahn. They don't make 'em like they used ta. It ain't like the good ole days is it?

 

[Louisa]

Jah was that filmed in the Lordship when it was still the Mag? Must have been early 90's, those early gentrifying pioneers entering the badlands of ED in search of a do-me-upper.

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

People still like trad pubs - when they're nice. Not when they stink of 10 year old fags and your feet stick to the floor.

[Louisa]

Jez you need to visit the Old Apple Tree in Peckham, or the Pyro in Nunhead. They're both traditional pubs but they're welcoming and nice, clean friendly places. I really honestly don't understand or recognise this 10yr old fag and stained carpet stereotype you speak of? If anything, that's what I would expect of a wetherspoons not a privately owned pub where the owners take pride in it.

Louisa.

[Grok]

Kids, babies, prams, non alcohol drinkers in pubs killed pubs

[Jah Lush]

I can go with that, Grok.

[DuncanW]

Grok Wrote:

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> Kids, babies, prams, non alcohol drinkers in pubs

> killed pubs

Is that really the case though? Wasn't it more that lack of custom meant that they weren't viable businesses anymore. The operators who ran The Foresters? et al weren?t making money so they closed. Then new operator(s) came in with a business model that worked better.

[DulwichFox]

DuncanW Wrote:

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> Grok Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Kids, babies, prams, non alcohol drinkers in

> pubs

> > killed pubs

>

> Is that really the case though? Wasn't it more

> that lack of custom meant that they weren't viable

> businesses anymore.

The operators who ran The Foresters? et al weren?t making money so they closed.

Then new operator(s) came in with a business model that worked better.

The Foresters had 2 Pool Tables in the back extension which they claimed brought in a fortune..

Well it didn't but as where ever there is a pool table there were rows and scuffles...

The Bishop put tables and chairs in the same space and had people eating and drinking..

I detest pool tables in pubs..

DulwichFox

[Jeremy]

It's the smoking ban that was the real game changer. Kids were a natural consequence.

Louisa Wrote:

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> I really honestly don't understand or recognise this 10yr old fag and

> stained carpet stereotype you speak of?

Basically, anywhere that hasn't been redecorated since the smoking ban still tends to have the stains and faint whiff... luckily there aren't many still in that state.

[????]

I bemoan the decline of the traditional pub and there are still a few gems left. But to blame it on anything other than falling demand is ridiculous, turning the clock back, scapegoating led by....well, no surprise.

[Mick Mac]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Mick Mac I always found pool and darts to be

> really popular social events in pubs, with teams

> competing from rival pubs. I do not recognise the

> antisocial aspect of this side of traditional pub

> culture at all? Pubs more welcoming? How do you

> reach that conclusion? All I see are people in

> groups stood around or sat around eating and not

> letting anyone in or even recognising/conversing

> with strangers. It's all because incredibly

> antisocial. Family friendly pubs, for me, means

> gentrified yummy mummy play centres where they can

> nurse a coffee or small glass of wine for a couple

> of hours while their darling offspring run around

> the pub making it uncomfortable for everyone else.

Go to the Great Exhibition on a Saturday afternoon and there arent many people nursing coffees. These pubs are not aimed at professional drinkers - they are aimed at professionals who eat and drink, with their offspring eating too.

Anyway you missed the point - ask yourself how the pub games originated - suggests to me people were bored and invented/incorporated a game into their drinking day, or the owner thought it was a good way to keep them there longer. Some establishments still thrive on this but not the local "gentrified" market, their pitch is very different.

[DulwichFox]

I used to play darts and was in the Uplands team...

We used to go to different pubs each week in competitions where each pubs would provide free food.

Crystal Palace Tavern.. (NOT The CPT) , Pubs in Surrey Quays and Peckham who's names escape me which are no longer there. A place in Brockley .. The Windmill ??? no longer there.. The Rye Hotel.. It was a really good night out..

Cant see that ever returning... Free Food.. ?? Yeah Even with 6 teams of 8-10 all knocking back gallons of ale.

Forget pool tables..

DulwichFox

P.S Peckham pub was The Admiral Codrington off of Wells Way.. Old Bikers pub..

[Jeremy]

The White Horse has just been refurbed, and still has pool table and darts.

Unfortunately for some of you, they do serve food (and soft drinks) as well as beer, and children have been spotted on the premises during some sort of yuppie ritual they call "Sunday lunch". But you can't please everyone.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The castle has pool and darts.

[Jah Lush]

I remember the darts and pool nights at the EDT back in the 80s. I don't remember any fights with them. Card schools on the other hand were a different proposition altogether. That could get a bit tasty when someone was accused of cheating and they'd done their wages on five card brag or poker.

[KidKruger]

there's often a bit of tension around the pool tabel in a pub, but so what, the odd broken nose and stabbing, a couple of lost teeth here or there, a ripped shirt and tankard wound in the face, it's gool old-fashioned fun (chortle), if I remember the thread a few months ago correctly..

[Louisa]

Jeremy Wrote:

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>

> Unfortunately for some of you, they do serve food

> (and soft drinks) as well as beer, and children

> have been spotted on the premises during some sort

> of yuppie ritual they call "Sunday lunch". But you

> can't please everyone.

Jez the White Horse has retained its character (for now) but long term I fear for its direction and place. This venue was famous for its homemade Sunday roast dinners long before these people took it on.

On the subject of kids, I don't dislike them at all, but I feel a pub should be a space for adults and IF children are allowed in they should be seen and not heard. Unfortunately, lots of yuppy parents do control their offspring and allow them to use the adult space of a public house like some sort of nursery while they eat their food. It's out of order and damn right ignorant.

Louisa.

[Mick Mac]

Nothing wrong with games in certain types of pubs - but pubs have changed. With a few exceptions (Jeremy) its likely the owners will go one way or the other.

I used to love pool matches in the Finsbury Park Tavern but I wouldn't bring my wife and children there.

You could say the same things about the evolution of the greasy spoons from working men's smoking stations to family eating areas. Most have changed but some have stayed the same, wanted to keep the same punters.

Some pubs intentionally wanted to change their punters, eg CPT to TGE.

[Seabag]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> The White Horse has just been refurbed, and still

> has pool table and darts.

>

> Unfortunately for some of you, they do serve food

> (and soft drinks) as well as beer, and children

> have been spotted on the premises during some sort

> of yuppie ritual they call "Sunday lunch". But you

> can't please everyone.

I do find the pubs with serious food, which is priced accordingly, are more likely to have a lack of 'small people' running around

I like small people, just not squeaking whilst I'm eating lunch in a very nice food place

I'm happy gastro pubs are catering for families, they can grow up there and come to the other places when thier training is over

[Louisa]

I grew up on suet puddings and liver & bacon, no wonder I don't appreciate anything over and above nuts crisps and pickled eggs in pubs.

Louisa.

[Otta]

Didn't the white horse always do food?

[Louisa]

White Horse of old did Sunday roasts and other pub grub, but it was informal, traditional and overall didn't appeal to blow in types.

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

Otta Wrote:

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> Didn't the white horse always do food?

Yep - certainly since I can remember.

My comment - "Unfortunately for some of you, they do serve food" - was a gentle piss take of those who think pubs should only serve booze and crisps!