Akmal Shaikh

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm against the death penalty anyway, but that aside I wasn't too engaged with the whole Possibly-BiPolar-Briton-Gets-Killed-For-Carrying-Heroin story

And then I read this

one of the reasons why quids gets me so riled when comparing The Mail to The Guardian

[iaineasy]

hahahaha

[RosieH]

"Unlike China with its firing squads, the only 'shooting galleries' we have in Britain are state-run needle exchanges for junkies"

It's a thing of rare and exquisite beauty.

Actually, the one thing that gives me hope when reading some of the drivel the Mail comes out with, is that oftentimes the readers seem to disagree vehemently with the columnists if you read the comments box (although on the strength of today's comments, I am assuming that the good people commenting have picked up this article via an outraged twitter feed or similar - they don't sound like real Mail readers)

[????]

Well a poor choice of polemic as it's the online bit where polemic is the norm and a bit misjudged as I've consistently said I'm against the death penalty on here...

..the point is the unqestionable faith in its own right and rightousness and the conformity of thought and lack of questioning that makes me dislike the Guardian..the difference in tone, delivey and audience makes this a poor comparison..go and get something from a non 'liberal' broadsheet

[Mick Mac]

One key factor behind modern Britain's reluctance to uphold the law is the belief that criminals are really victims of society, motivated only by social disadvantage or mental health problems and that they need support not punishment.

I agree with this comment. Also, there always seems to be some excuse made for people who break the law abroad, and this case is no different.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Mick - why would you believe that

"modern britain" has a reluctance to uphold the law?? I love the "modern" - yet another hark back to a mythical golden age

Time and time again, some people misinterpret an argument around a particular sentences as having "sympathy" for the criminal.

And where is the excuse for people breaking the law abroad? The only argument being put forward is that to kill a human being is already wrong and to do so to a mentally impaired individual (have you SEEN those youtube clips of him singing songs he thought would bring him fame???) is a bit... y'know...

[RosieH]

Always a bit wary of following Sean on one of these threads for fear of looking like knee-jerk liberal lackey, but I think the right-wing perceived "victimhood" of criminals is a bit of a red herring.

Surely it makes sense to work out WHY people commit crimes, not so that we can give them a nice comfy sofa in their cell because mummy never loved them, but so that something can be done to try to reduce crime in the future.

As for people with mental health problems, erm, yes, they're ill. So you know, we should, like, treat the illness. Or something.

To Quids' point about The Guardian's sense of right and righteousness, well yes, there is that. And Quids, I think you're right. But surely there's that in the Times or the Telegraph too..? That's the feeling I always come away with when reading those papers (I read all the papers for work so it's not just the occasional perusal at the folks' house). I do genuinely wonder if it isn't the case that certain papers will grate more than others in their polemic because the views expressed are very much at odds with the reader's own... Or maybe I am just a bleeding heart pinko.

[Atila Reincarnate]

As most of the forumites on here know, I am a great believer in the death penalty but in this case it seems that the Chinese have acted inappropriately. I don't have enough info at disposal regarding the case, but it does seem the Chinese could have chosen to act differently.

[Mick Mac]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mick - why would you believe that

>

> "modern britain" has a reluctance to uphold the

> law?? I love the "modern" - yet another hark back

> to a mythical golden age

>

> Time and time again, some people misinterpret an

> argument around a particular sentences as having

> "sympathy" for the criminal.

>

I did not think this was a thread that you intended to be about sentencing but rather Leo McKinstry's views and those of the Daily Mail.

"One key factor behind modern Britain's reluctance to uphold the law is the belief that criminals are really victims of society, motivated only by social disadvantage or mental health problems and that they need support not punishment."

I do think there is a move towards considering criminals' mindsets as solveable, which I don't necessarily agree with. For example people who commit crimes against children are seen as being "ill" and after counselling and convincing psychologists of being cured of their illness are released back into society, where we are the guinea pigs who are put at risk while this experiment takes place.

I think McKinstry is an attention seeker and extreme opinions work for him and his career. But there is truth in what he says and I feel we look for the "reason" that people have committed crimes to the extent that we no longer accept that the individual is to blame. We seek to find a reason to excuse their actions and no longer accept that they are simply criminally minded or deviant to the extent that they have no care for the consequences of their actions and we need to accept that in most cases they do not act in a way that we can "cure" or even fully understand or rationalise.

As for this case in particular, I don't really know much about this guy, I admit that and I have not seen any youtube clips as I have no real interest in understanding his condition now as he has already been executed, but as I have said on other threads I'm not in favour of the death penalty but you have to accept the justice that is in place in the jurisdiction in which you committed the crime.

We can make moves towards pressurising China to amend their justice system to our liking but again, who are we to say that our way is best. They do, at least, have a mental illness review procedure in place but saw no evidence of it being needed in this case.

[daizie]

Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As most of the forumites on here know, I am a

> great believer in the death penalty but in this

> case it seems that the Chinese have acted

> inappropriately. I don't have enough info at

> disposal regarding the case, but it does seem the

> Chinese could have chosen to act differently.

I couldnt agree more !

[bignumber5]

Atila, read that back to yourself... you believe in the death penalty but you think the Chinese authorities have acted inappropriately?!

That's the thing about the death penalty, you can't do anything about it after the fact, you can't take it back and you can't restore a wrongly taken life. If you lock someone up for 25 years and it turns out to be "inappropriate", you can let them out sooner, or transfer them to a more appropriate facility.

But, essentially, to believe in the death penalty, one is pledging one of 2 things to be true:

1. Legal process is absolutely infallible, so noone innocent or 'inappropriate' will ever swing... or

2. occasionally, innocent or inappropriately sentenced people will have to die in order to maintain an overall average of justice in society...

The first simply isn't true, human error and all that, and the second is absolutely unacceptable to me.

Back on-topic, however, whilst I'm anti-execution myself, I believe in respecting the laws and customs of any place where I am an outsider, and I generally have low tolerance for the public appeals of people that break laws in other countries that enforce such sentences and then scream human rights violation at sentencing time. I have no idea whether or not this chap's mental illness (which seems to be front-and-centre in his defence), or any other factor, should have been taken into consideration when he was sentenced, because I don't know enough about the specifics of the case. But that only debates whether or not the sentence was appropriate under the chinese legal system. My own anti- stance is one that the people of China, and anyone breaking the law there, do not have the luxury of. If the man was found guilty following a fair trial according to the Chinese system, and if the sentence was appropriate to the crime according to the Chinese system - and these are 2 big "if's", I realise - then there is no further case to answer. Should there be doubt over the "if" points, a very different story.

I have no idea which is the case here - are we up-in-arms about the process or the outcome?

...or have I totally missed the point, and this fella's story is just a vehicle for debating the reporting styles of the British media?

[PeckhamRose]

"But, essentially, to believe in the death penalty, one is pledging one of 2 things to be true: "

Three things. If I want to kill someone and I know I may be killed as a result, why would I stop at just killing one person? I'd take as many as I could AND make time to include the local traffic enforcement officers in their cars with their cameras sticking up the top I just witnessed harrassing some poor mother with her kids in prams with an elderly relative taking time to get back in the car just picking up some shopping FFS!

[mockney piers]

Thank you Sean, if it wasn't for that I'd have missed the Mail's quality reporting on Ice-T's Wife in Swimsuit. I think you'll agree very much in the public interest. And a great booty for a white girl...

[Narnia]

Surely anyone taking drugs into China has got to be mad? Sounds like a good enough defence to me.

[HAL9000]

The British argument regarding mental illness doesn't make sense in this case. We convict hundreds of bi-polar sufferers every year - it's a regular occurrence. I'm aware of an Old Bailey trial in which the prosecution claimed the defendant was bi-polar as part of its own case and still secured a conviction. The British criminal justice system's treatment of mentally ill offenders is amongst the worst in the western world.

Mentally ill inmates support call

Serious mental disorder in 23,000 prisoners: a systematic review of 62 surveys

[SeanMacGabhann]

well.. apart from killing them of course

[HAL9000]

Prison suicides are the result of jailing the mentally ill ...

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm basically in agreement with you HAL so I'm not trying to be oppositionist, but it's still not the same thing

[????]

anyway, back on topic... some random link from The Guardian Online,....great journalism, someone not living on a bunch of completley prejudiced views after 30 years, alsong as the blokes a radical pyschologist or whatever...etc, etc...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/27/goodbye-noughties-lesbianism-men

This is what the online journalists do Sean...get as much hits as we can (see also Rod Liddle)...it's a form of Trolling really

[HAL9000]

SMG - I realise that. I?m just making the point that an awful lot of mentally ill prisoners die in British prisons.

I've no problem with Britain's stance against the death penalty but playing the mental illness card is disingenuous, in my view.

I doubt whether many lay people in England are aware that the law was changed recently to prohibit the Criminal Cases Review Commission from considering fresh or new psychiatric reports when reviewing cases for referral to the Court of Appeal, for example. Our record in this area is appalling.

[EDOldie]

The Govt could have saved him but clearly could not back down from Milibans disastrous comments after the Copenhagen fiasco.

The Chinese need a good kick up the arse over human rights. Lets not forget this was the first state sanctioned murder for 50 years of a european. That alone has to be highly significant, I'm sure that they have had the opportunity before. However, it looks like we are going to get a 'punch in the mouth' from Iran for Milibans comments. He's not wrong, we have to stand up against bullies, but it is a question of degree. Miliban comes from an electic background you'd think he would know better.

[SteveT]

Where does this guy get off insisting he is British?

He was born in Pakistan has a Pakistani name and looks like a Pakistani..............

He was caught "at it" in a tough regime, sorry but I have little sympathy, no one knows how many trips he has previously

undertaken laden with smack, and China has the last word!

Their land their rules, would that it were so here.

[bignumber5]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Where does this guy get off insisting he is

> British?

>

> He was born in Pakistan has a Pakistani name and

> looks like a Pakistani..............

British citizenship/passport maybe? Let's not go down that route yet again, SteveT...

[vinceayre]

SteveT you are so wrong we welcome all drug dealers and terrorist with open arms give them accommodation benefits and even if they encourage others to carry out atrocities in the UK still don't kick them out or even lock them up. Where is your liberal bleeding heart SteveT?

We must be the laughing stock of the criminal/terrorist world. When I was young I used to be proud to be British but know I view it as an embarrassment, we are so tied up in PC liberal thinking that we are sliding down the world order quickly while the politicians and their cronies line their pockets. We are scared shltless the bankers will leave so continue to bend over for them and have let mindless thugs take control of our street, the police are impotent and the courts powerless to do anything meaningful about it. The country is going to the dogs . can Cameron save it , I doubt it very much.

Good riddance to scum with this dead drug dealer. He was dealing in Heroin so deserved all he got, I wonder how many of you actually know the misery that drug causes to so many normal families here in the UK.

[bignumber5]

vinceayre Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Good riddance to scum with this dead drug dealer.

> He was dealing in Heroin so deserved all he got, I

> wonder how many of you actually know the misery

> that drug causes to so many normal families here

> in the UK.

I don't think that anyone here is condoning heroin dealing/smuggling...